Regular or Unleaded?
 

We just got Elfin Bedwe'er's bloodwork back from the lab and his lead levels are pretty damn high, a shade under 30 mc/dl (he's 9 months).

This totally sucks. The state is sending some lead abatement/counsellor to our house to "learn us" all about lead.

Our house is about 150 years old. It is basically constructed of lead. Probably would only have more lead in it if it were made from old car batteries.

Anyway, we are going to have to do some serious lead abatement, but maybe we'll sell the house and move. It would be cheaper. As a friend of mine used to joke: "What DOES a quart of gasoline cost these days?"

I'm sure we'll get all kinds of helpful (read condescending) advice from the state worker about how to reduce his blood lead levels, but does anyone here have any experience with this?

The most irksome thing is that the case worker assumes we're ignant po trash because our kid has high lead levels. Well, we might be, but we're both college granulates. :(

Will they let you sell the house? Where I am, it's illegal to sell a house that fails certain major inspection standards. I would think lead content would be one of them. Is there any chance homeowner's insurance will pay for some of it?

I don't know about lead levels and selling a house, nor do I know much about removal of same other than to tell you to call a contractor, but I might recommend looking into chelation therapy for reducing the lead levels in the blood. Hopefully before they become too toxic and cause brain damage.

I have not tried it myself (I never liked paint chips, I liked potato ;)) but some people tell me it helps a lot.

Brian

My friend's husband worked in a car-battery plant (Exide) and apparently he was able to bring home enough lead from working there that their daughter's level became dangerously high. He found another job and the kid's level went down. I know other people who have worked there who had to sign waivers absolving the company from any liability related to the lead, and saying they had been informed of the dangers of working there.

I thought chelation was some kind of new-age type holistic treatment. Maybe I'm thinking of something else with a similar name?

It is. But it does work to lower heavy metal levels in the body. Or so I'm told.
I think it has something to do with chemical reactions that sediment out the lead and allow the liver to filter it. Or something like that. I really should research this for myself instead of relying on anecdotal evidence.

Brian

Okay. here is a link that explains what chelation is and what it is used for. Other sites have denounced it as "quack" medicine. I dunno.

Doctors seem threatened by anything that upsets their apple cart and flies in the face of conventional thinking. Witness the germ theory espoused by, I think, Lister...yeah...that's the guy. The medical establishment pilloried the man and then after he died, admitted that they were wrong and made him a hero.

So think, research and make your own decisions. Or ignore me. Many do, and survive just fine. It was just a suggestion.

Brian

Working with lead is tricky because of the dust particles and fumes if it's heated. But in your home it's solid, in the paint and maybe some pipes.

Lead, like asbestos, isn't a problem if you leave it alone. At 9 months, is he chewing on window sills? Is the paint flaking or dusting off? Do you have any lead pipes in the supply pipeing?

You should have your levels checked also, because this doesn't make sense, unless you're remodeling and putting the lead in the air. :confused:

Clod,
Yeah, up here (upstate ny) most houses are pretty old. You do have to 'fess up first though. Our realtor told us not to bother having a lead test done. She guaranteed that there was lead in the house.

Homeowners insurance mocks us derisively. (a pre-existing condition? ha ha)
but there are grants from the state that will kick in significantly to abatement.

BrianR, My wife's brother is a doctor and he gave us some advice about not freaking out too much. He doesn't recommend the chelation program. It hasn't been proven to be effective and since Bedwe'er's levels are low enough to avoid it, we will for now. I don't trust people sticking needles into other people. I know people who got Hep C from routine friendly haha procedures so, the less perforating the better.

jane_says,
Yeah, I've heard about monitoring people who work with lead. It seems like all you have to do is think about it and your levels rise. Someone told me they discovered their kids had elevated lead levels after the family cat mysteriously died... of lead poisoning.

So what about the folks who work uranium mines?

Brianr,
Checked the link about chelation therapy. That model with the lab coat and clipboard (Dr.?) seems cute and friendly enough that I don't feel threatened at all. My pulse isn't racing, but something about crackers in bed never mind.

I am always suspicious of anything that is being sold to chakras 2 and up where the advertising is aimed at #1. Granted she wasn't wearing a bikini, that would be over the top, but she seemed a little too chipper. Whoa, I'm digressing.

What is really more interesting to me is that EDTA is often used as a wetting agent in photography. It is weird how many chemicals I see that are in my darkroom. Maybe I could start a "shadetree chelation clinic" Clinic sounds too unfriendly. Maybe SPA is the word I'm looking for.

I dunno, as a reformed macrobiotic (kill the pig, drink its blood!) I am so leery of these "magic bullet" cures.

Another friend (holistic md) thinks the whole lead thing is a red herring. I mean, we're all alive and mostly well.

Leave it alone. That is my new motto. "Just say: 'Leave It Alone'."

Nah, he's not gnawing yet, but he spent the last few months tasting everything he could grab. We figured "heck we live in the country, it's clean dirt." Well maybe cleaner than the city, but really just different dirt.

No lead pipes. But the paint (what is left) on the outside of the house is probably original c. 1850 and I hear that back then paint was up to 50% lead.
I spent two years renovating the house before we moved in (it was a horrorshow) there was a lot of airborn lead, heatgunned, zipstipped, sanded, scraped, crunched underfoot, lunch eaten amidst the debris, etc. it was cleaned, painted, aired out, vacant for a year before we actually moved in.

I had my lead levels checked and they were "normal" I don't remember the numbers. It seems the dust is persistant and the drill is wash with a phosphate based detergent, using disposable wipes. vacuum 3-5 times with a HEPA filter. From the sound of it, it's like honey; first it's running down the side of the bear and before you know it it's on your elbow and you've gotten it all over your car door.

Thanks for your input(s). I'll keep you posted as things progress. Today we spent the day cleaning.

One thing that is weird about lead is that the body can't distinguish it from calcium or iron. So the treatment most recommended is to add a lot of calcium and iron to the baby's diet. That way when the body goes hunting for calcium or iron, there is proportionally less lead in the mix.

Hey footfootfoot, is Bedwe'er his name or his nickname, and how do you pronounce it?

C'fob,
It's a nickname. I think it is from monty python and the holy grail. It's pronounced bed•we're, like: 'we're on our way'. I think it is a contraction of bed wetter. Except he's still in diapers so he doesn't get a chance to wet the bed. yet.

I need to see that movie again. I used to have the soundtrack.

I think you're thinking of Sir Bedevere.

But as a contraction of "Bedwetter" it's quite hilarious, and will be very useful for parental taunting in later years ... particularly on the night of the Senior Prom. That's an excellent embarrass in front of the date story.

Can you explain the macrobiotic thing to me? I've heard it bandied about quite a bit recently but haven't a clue what it means.

Wolf,
OK now I have to see that movie again. Thanks for clearing that up. As they say, the palest ink is better than the best memory. Somehow, I'm not surprised that you are a "fellow traveller". heh heh
Now, if only my memory lasts long enough to make it to his senior prom...

Jane_says,
Macrobiotic, in theory = macro, large, long bios, life. (the following is a retrospective view and if any macros read this, everyone else put on your Nomex undies) As it first incarnated in this country it was really nothing more than confused, ethnocentric (Japan, surprise!) new age babble. Essentially espousing: eat seasonally, locally, according to your condition and constitution. This may sound ok, but the diet was really a bit whacky and the advice was pretty culturally biased. The second son of macros (michio Kushi) was a chain smoking, womanizing, charlaton whose macrobiotic seal of approval could be bought for 30 or 40 grand.

As I understand, Macrobiotics now is a little more balanced in its views, but still is appealing to extremists who like to live by rules rather than free thinking.

Well, that was a pretty broad brush.

I found the culprit in my cellar today. This can must be at least 30 years old as we used it in the machine shop to lubricate lathe centers. :(

Aw remember when Benzene was the best thing to wash tools & hands with?

Or triclorethylene 1-1-1. Wash the parts then hold it in your hand and blow it off with 90psi air. :3_eyes:

I have a can of "film cleaner" 1-1-1 tricloroethylene, I love it. I thought about selling it on ebay, but nothing cleans quite like it.

When I was a bike mechainc I'd regularly scrub down at the end of the day with safety clean (safe right?) now, just a dab of mineral spirits and my whole hand and arm goes tingling for several minutes.

Fun!

I also have some white lead down in the cellar somewhere. But the baby hasn't been anywhere near it, it's packed in a crate somwhere.

I dig the photos of those cans though. There is something authentic about them, I can't put my finger on it. When I was a kid I melted a bunch of sinkers on the stovetop when the parents were at work (latchkey kid) and poured the lead into a mold that I had made by pressing a medallion into a chunk of plasticene.

Holy Christ! what a frigging mess that was! I was probably in sixth grade, didn't quite grasp the whole temperature difference factor.

subsequent lost wax experiences went more smoothly.

I'll post an update on our visit from the "lead lady" tomorrow.

Here is an Update for anyone who cares:
The "lead lady" came for a visit and was shocked to see actual fresh fruit and vegetables in our house. She went on to tell us that E.B. should be on a lowfat diet, plenty of calcium and iron. It seems that most people she visits eat scottish food at least one meal a day (i.e. McDonald's).

She thought he seemd fine and then she strolled through the house and said it didn't look all that risky for lead.

Next week the "lead guy" will come with an xray fluoroscope and he'll tell us where the lead is. (apart from inside the baby)

I know the tingle, I often wondered if my brain was numb just before I did it.
Any updates from the pros? :confused:

Here is the latest skinny:
Technically, right now I should be doing lead abatement since Bedwe'er and Mrs. are out of town. But I am unwinding tonight after teaching 13th graders photography.

Here is a report in a mix of scientific lingo as I remember my HS physics and the patois of upstate NY:
So the state senior sanitarian (real title) came by with this very cool gizmo that had a chunk of Cobalt 47? (47, 48 whatever it takes) inside which directs a beam of radiation (we're already eating a bunch of lead, so what's a little radiation right?) at the paint surface. The radiation gets the lead's various electron shells all jiggy (this is a slight departure from pure science) and the machine reads the jiggyness of the K shell and the L shell, thus determining how much lead is in the paint. I think this is in µ/cm2.

The reading of the K shell indicates the lead level below the surface and the L shell indicates the surface. I think.

When I say cool gizmo, the business end had to be cooled to –40ºf. Anyway, The guy measured just about everything in the house and the levels were from .8µ/cm2 to 40 or 50µ/cm2. The house is over 150 years old. See map from 1886.

I suppose if I were body grinding piles of sinkers in the kitchen, there'd be more lead around but the paint chips he pointed out were so damn tiny, smaller than poppyseed tiny, that I figure I need glasses.

So I ma supposed to strip all the window sash and door jambs and repaint. Also the stairs. Tomorrow is paint blitz.

Then the nurse came to do a developmental eval on Bedwe'er who is 10 months, t o be sure he is not developmentally delayed. So he checks out at 12 months. Which leads me to wonder: If he hadn't chowed all that lead would he be writing his piano concerto about now (or advising bush on foreign policy–did I just type that?) or is all this lead stuff a big red herring?

It seems that developmental delays and high lead levels are most prevalent in inner city/ poor families. I wonder how much good nutrition plays a role in this?

The other thing I wonder is (and this is where I get cynical) maybe it is safe to go after lead in a big public way since no major corporations are using it much. It is a kind of safe target, any culpability is lost in the mists of time.

Frankly, I'm much more concerned about antibiotics, fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides in my water than a bit of lead. I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing anyone from the state or federal gov. getting their knickers in a twist over what monsanto or dupont want to do. But now until Bedwe'er's lead levels go down to <9µ/dl he has to have blood drawn every 12 weeks.

Just to put it in perspective where we live is in the heart of dairy country, I can smell when fertilizer is applied to the corn fields around here (I don't mind it, I actually like the apple cidery smell, just want to give an indication of proximity) The soil around here is clay and sand, and the water table is about 12 feet down.

Oh did I mention that there is no town sewage? We have a 150 yr old cess pit, as do most of our neighbors.

I envy your water filter, right now we have a PUR tap thing. Maybe better than nothing.

So tomorrow is Methylene Chloride day! Hooray! :eek:

Hi fff, hope your abatement project is going well. I want to chime in on the chelation discussion, as I have had some experience with this. While chelation therapy is unproven and occasionally abused for treatment of a wide array of ills, it is well proven safe and effective for reducing levels of heavy metals in the bloodstream. This article has more info on how and why it works: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organiza.../chelation.htm.

The business about kids eating paint chips is a bit of a myth: yes, some kids eat paint chips (due to curiosity, or a condition called 'pica' (related to OCD) in which non-food is compulsively ingested), but the vast majority of kids who are lead-poisoned in older homes are inhaling large molecules of airborne lead which are leaching off the painted surface. Lead-based paints are highly unstable, with the surface coating constantly sloughing off, releasing ingestable/inhalable lead particles. These particles become airborne even if several layers of non-leaded paint has been applied over many years.

This is why the method of abatement you choose is very important. If you've got vast expanses of wall surface painted with lead-based paint, you're not going to be sanding or stripping; you'll be 'encapsulating' -- and not just with a few coats of paint. The most effective method is a new layer of drywall. Short of that, various sealants are known to be effective. If you choose to remove lead-based paint from a surface, be aware that heat guns actually release more inhalable lead particles than scraping, chemical peeling and even sanding.

As far as dismissing the medical effects of elevated lead levels; don't. I have been involved in enough cases to see that in houses (in formerly nice but now rundown neighborhoods in Baltimore) where one kid is in a room with lots of airborne lead (on deteriorated sills, for example) and another is in a room with little or no detectable lead, the first kid is likely to have elevated levels. Guess which kid is 'borderline-dull?'

The diet advice is not quackery or related to any preconceived notions the 'lead lady' may have had correlating poverty with poor diet; in fact, diets high in iron and calcium inhibit absorption of ingested lead, while fats increase dietary absorption. Here is a pretty good consumer-level article about lead poisoning: http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/FL/00068.html

I wish you and your family the best, and urge your wife to get her levels tested, particularly if you are planning on having more kids -- the only effective way to reduce lead levels in bone marrow (where lead gets stored once the blood levels reach a certain point) is for a woman to get pregnant, and pass her bone-based lead to the fetus. Uggh.

Thanks for listening -- I needed something to do while occasionally checking the Electoral College tally. When I started this reply it was Bush: 254, Kerry: 227; now it's Bush: 254, Kerry: 252, and I may not have to move out of the country after all!