Church & State....Lift & separate.
 

I was talking with a fundie yesterday. :eek:
He claims, since the Constitution doesn’t provide for a separation of church and state, it shouldn’t be the accepted policy.
Can anyone tell me where this policy originated?
What's the legal precedent? :confused:

Umm, Bruce, I'm pretty sure this is the foundation:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Are you OK, man?

Is the exact phrase in the USC? No. Does that mean that every minute symbol or mention of God be removed today, from any local, state, or federal gov't function, proceeding or building.....

That's the debate.

Here again, I see things from a different perspective. If the big push is to completely remove Christianity from the gov't...or the society, fine. Let's wait a bit until their numbers decline per the current trend and then there shouldnt be much resistance.

On the other hand, if you feel for some reason that you must throw gas on the fire and get the base to dig in and possibly increase their numbers, the conflict will only grow.

If you see that as the "cost of doing business" , fine by me. There are many more in a wide variety of stations in life throughout the country though.

But then again.....oh fuck it, where's my beer?

The First Ammendment is where it's encoded in the Constitution. The phrase "separation between church and state" comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, in which he explains the meaning of the First Ammendment, as he sees it.

According to that somewhat dry, but interesting book I just finished reading, "The American Leadership Tradition," Jefferson was very pro-liberty, but very anti-church/christianity, which is where the "wall of separation" notion comes from.

Sorry I'm late getting back here, had to bury a close friend. :(
Thanks for the link, HM. :thumbsup:
Ok, if the citizens of a town of say 3,000 people, all either Christian or nothing(agnostic, atheist, blank), want to have a nativity scene on the town hall lawn, how is this a violation of any laws? If no one is complaining? If one person is complaining? If 49% complain?
If the Ten Commandments is on the police station wall is that promoting Judaism?

That's rough, man. Sorry to hear about that. :(

The piece on the wall itself doesn't. It's just art. But the intention of the person (people) who put it there says why it's there. That's where things get tricky. You can ask someone why they put it there and they can say anything and intend something else. So you end up with others picking one of many possible reasons and insisting that's the real reason, whether it is or not, and getting whipped into a creamy froth over it.

I never got the feel that he was anti-christian, he even did his own cliff notes version of the new testament, sort of.

Something along the lines of a concept of mine, "I don't fear the godly man, I fear the man of god."

A quote of Jefferson from HM's link: "I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem."

These do not sound like the words of someone on an anti-Christian crusade. Jefferson sounds very generous and ecumenical in his response, IMO. It was always my understanding that the seperation of church and state came from the high percentage of colonists who came to America to escape persecution for their religous beliefs in Europe.

On the question of a town of 3,000 Christians all desiring a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn: this would be the government respecting a religion - Christianity. Suppose that the very next year a Jew or a Pagan or a Buddhist happened to move into this community and there on the courthouse lawn was this obvious government endorsement of Chritianity. Wouldn't the Jew, Pagan, etc. feel that in order to get along with the town court, police, county commissioners he'd better make a secret of his religous belief or even convert whether he wanted to or not? And why wouldn't these 3,000 Christians be content with a nicely done nativity scene on the front lawn of their local church? Surely, this would be both more appropriate and more sacred?

And, Bruce: I am very sorry to hear about your friend. You have my deep sympathy.

Seems to me the government (Fed, State, Local), shouldn't promote or discourage any new or existing religion but they should accomodate the people they serve.
Government property = common property.
If the resident Christians want to put up a nativity, hey, knock yourself out.
The Jews say we want a menorah, OK, have at it.
Ralf worships sheep, uh, go do that in private.
If you truly want to separate government from religion, I'm in favor, but not by repressing public expression. If the Christian kid sees a menorah or a pagan celebration and questions what it's about, he all might learn a little more. He might be less fearful of others. :)

I think he was more anti-clergy, a view shared by many of his peers.

OK, you'll probably accuse me of not getting the point again ;) , but aren't matters of belief personal rather than public? Like when I go out in public I do not wear a t-shirt or wave a banner stating my decidely eclectic brand of personal belief (mainly Buddhist with lots of Navajo, Christian, and pagan beliefs thrown in just for interest). I don't expect government buildings to knock themselves out flaunting MY belief system when I myself would never dream of doing such a thing.

The government is NOT repressing public expression of belief, only maintaining government buildings as a sort of neutral territory, so to speak. If you want to fill your front yard with 20 foot high neon lights that blink on and off proclaiming "Jesus Saves!" or "Blessed be the name of Allah!" or even "Go, Satan!" no one is going to stop you other than possibly the neighborhood improvement association.

Many churches do put nativities on their lawns. Why would they need city hall to do it, too? My guess is - to indicate that this town is Christian. Putting religious displays on public property, expecially in this age, is primarily a political statement - not a religious one - and dilutes any spiritual meaning of the content of the display. Separation of church and state is designed to protect the state from being too dogmatic, and the church from being too political. Each are diminished when they are combined.

HM, you obviously don't live in small town, usa. :)

Mari, you stinkin' liberal. :joylove:

Small Town, USA has plenty of church lawns to put nativities on - probably more than Big City USA.

Nah, they're all covered with Santas, reindeer, cherubic choirs in red and white robes and Rudolf with a 300 watt nose. The real symbols of Christmas. ;)

Yeah, but Christians already have religion in their churches. The whole point is to get it back into government, which they feel encourages depravity in the guise of freedom. Remember, as a Christian, one does have freedom! The freedom to choose to accept Jesus and be Saved, or reject him and be damned.

For some reason, the current Fundamentalist Christian mentality seems to believe that, for example, making homosexual marriage legal will somehow lead to more homosexuality. I don't get this whole line of reasoning, and in fact, I think it is probably a big smokescreen. Fundamentalist Christians just don't like other people doing what Fundamentalist Christians don't think they should be doing, so they'd like them to stop. After all, it is for their own good, right?

It kinda boils down to, "I'm right, the rest of you are wrong, so you need to do it my way". When we keep religion and government separated, everyone has equal access to government, and the right to practice their religion without intimidation, interference or imposition of other people's tenets upon our daily lives.

Why is that bad?

I think Bruce's thread title is perfect: Separating religion and government lifts both.

Sorry, but church should be COMPLETELY separated from state. All government should remain out of churches and all religion should remain out of government. It's NEVER ok to mix them. Not for a small town nativity scene, not to put God on money, etc. Doing these things respects an establishment of religion and is exclusionary to those of other religions or no religion and shows bias.

The exact phrase "separation of church and state" aren't in the Constitution, but neither is the phrase "Bill of Rights". The separation of church and state is no less a part of the Constitution than is the Bill of rights.

How about a sign advertising Bob's Hardware or other local businesses?

Last Christmas I was living in the teensy town of Nucla, Colorado. The town hall put up a big bright star that could be seen for quite some distance away. The two local churches featured very gaudy and extravagant manger scenes on their front yards. I lived two houses down from one of the churches and the lights from their manger scene were so bright I hardly needed to turn on the lights in my living room in the evening. Everyone seemed happy with these decorations. I suppose in theory the town hall shouldn't have put up a star? :confused:

The City of Bethlehem, PA capitalizes on their obvious ties to Christianity as a tourist draw. They have the "big star on the mountain" and bill themselves as Christmas Town, USA. If they separate church and state there, they'll lose money.

(I admit to thoroughly enjoying the ChristKindlMarkt (where they sell the baby Jesus every year) and the obligatory side trip to the Moravian Book Store, even if it is goddamn impossible to park in that town)

I always loved that star. I just like stars though...

http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/...0/63209635.jpg

I've bought Moravian Stars in stained glass for quite a few of my friends. There's a big one that I've had my eye on for several years, but I don't have the window for it. They are popular enough that all the stained glass vendors have them and keep making them, so I'll end up with one eventually.

A "friend of the coven" made us a five-foot diameter Yule Pentagram a couple of years back, which we hang during our coven Yule celebration. Then, we take it home and hang it up in front of the double windows on the the front of our house.

Come Spring, my neighbor and I were standing there talking, when he points to the thing, and asks me, "Is that a Christmas decoration or a Pentagram?"

I told him it was a Pentagram, and he was cool with that. After all, I've known the guy since I was 13 years old. He knows I'm no baby killer, so he figures, what the hey?

Too bad the rest of the world isn't that tolerant or accepting.

If homosexuality is legitimized, it makes it much harder to blackma...uh ...solicit donations to the pastor/priest that keeps quiet. No piddley little hardware store, only BIG business, like God. Bush's pronunciation? Now that's just not right. Those bright lights upset the sheep and ruin the mood/ambiance. Oven ready? What is it with you Pagans leaving your yule decorations up all year. My goodness, there oughtta be a law.

So the general consensus is that the government should not accommodate the citizens decorating the town property for the Christmas Holidays with a nativity.
How about candy canes, colored lights and Santa Clause? You know, generic commercial trimmings? :)

Good one, Bruce! :D And closer than you might have thought. Nucla is an old uranium mining town in the far western part of Colorado!

Actually, even though I'm not a Christian, I couldn't care less if the city fathers want to put a phalanx of baby Jesus's on the court house lawn every December. It's all the same to me. The trouble is that such an act has the potential for putting us on that infamous slippery slope that has us careening into state sponsored religion. The Christian fundamentalists would walk away with one hell of a settlement from the insurance company while folks like pagans or Buddhists or Jews would end up behind bars for careless driving.

I think people who oppose a candy cane or Santa on the court house lawn are taking it too far, however. The last time I checked, a candy cane was not symbolic of any particular religion. :eyebrow:

Yes, it is. It's a peppermint representation of a bishop's crook, a symbol of the catholic church.

(Food Channel, Christmas Unwrapped. Gotta love the Food Channel for this kind of thing)

Yet *another* band name.

Jeez, just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water... ;)

Damn, I didn't know candy canes are catholic. I feel so inept. :o
Well it looks like I'm not going to get a pissing contest going here. I'll have to ask LJ for a refresher course in shit stirring. :lol:

Don't forget he charges one scad for each lesson, so start saving your pennies now! ;)

God is most certainly pro-BIG business, yes. Big bomb makers, big bullets and big planes, etc, etc.

We need these BIG manufacturers for our military so as to deliver, "The Hammers of Hell" to those unfortunate non-believers.

Praise the Lord - Pass the Pizza.

God

I suspect that it is because of entities like you that Americans arranged for a seperation of church and state. BTW, us celestial beings have been having a blast in your absense! The pizza's all gone although I think Jesus may be hoarding a couple of slices with anchovies in his room. So, how's the creating chaos among life forms on distant planets job going?

I'd like to finish business here before I continue with other planets. Looks like things are progressing nicely and with any luck, should be complete within a few months.

Thanks for asking though.