12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

http://cellar.org/pictures/ssposter.jpg

A.J. Brown is a 19-year-old freshman at Durham Tech. She got the poster she displays at an "anti-inauguration" protest in DC. It reads "We hang on your every word. George Bush: Wanted, 152 Dead" - a reference to the number of people executed by the state of Texas while Bush was governor.

One night she was playing some CDs a little too loud and a police officer came to tell her to turn it down. Two nights later someone else was playing music a little too loud and the cops came back to her door "by mistake". And two days after that, she was visited by the Secret Service and accused of having "anti-American material" in her apartment.

A smart lass, she refused them entry without a search warrant. They explained that they have to investigate every "complaint" that they get, but they stuck around for 40 minutes. Finally she got her mother on the phone - an Army reservist - who explained to the agents that her daughter was harmless and the poster was not anti-American. Finally she relented and allowed the agents in to see her poster wall, after which they left.

How does it start? It starts like this.

The full story: http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2001-...triangles.html

Re: 12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

John Fisher posted this on phl.media a few days ago.

That is just ridiculous. Does this mean that I'm being watched b/c I still think Dubya is a doofus?

I heard about this on 2600's radio show. If this trend keeps up i'll likely be next, as i've aired plenty of 'unpatriotic' views of late. :]

     This just plain sucks. It's good that the agents were reasonable in an unreasable situation though. With all the rights we lost with 'anti-terrorism bill' they could have done alot more than stand outside the door. I suppose that is the last line of defense Americans have. The shared understanding of what our country is meant to be.

     For the record I disagree with all of this kid's stated political views. Still I refuse to accept that this was deserved. She has a right in this country to express those views. If we don't stand up for the views of others that we disagree with then it will soon be our own veiws we are not allowed to express.

     By the by syc, you think he's a doofus? Huh, I've never called him anything that nice. Go figure. =]

Think you can't spend the rest of your life in an Alaskan labor/death camp for criticizing a president in even a letter to a friend? THINK AGAIN, AGAIN AND AGAIN!

The book sounds interesting...I've heard of it, but didn't know that it was written by Solzhenitsyn. I read "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" in college, which was a great read.

Re: 12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

The poster reads "We hang George Bush". That is a federal crime. However once inside the apartment (instead of reading it from the street), then read the fine print: "on your every word". The Secret Service agent did exactly what we want the agents to do. Only the paranoid would see a sinister government in this act. They rightly stayed around just to make sure she did not fit the profile of Lee Harvey Oswald and friends. That is what they are suppose to do. That is what federal law demands of the Secret Service.

BTW, that fine print was no accident. It was intended to test the limits of the law. It is illegal - a federal crime - to say to anyone that we should shoot or hang the President. Why? In Israel, one man did just that repeatedly - and as a result is now the Prime Minister thereby resulting in the massacre of innocents Jews and Arabs.

There is certain speech that is not free. You cannot (and should not) make threats on a President's life just like you cannot yell fire in a theatre or that your gun in already on the plane. That speech is just not acceptable - or legal.

Once the agent determined this poster contained fine print and that the girl was indeed not a threat to the president, then the agent had done his job.

As for the girl, there is absolutely NO reason for her to be rattled if she is stable. They asked some honest questions as they should have. She had no reason to be scared or threatened. She had nothing to hide. But she should have learned about what that poster (and what free speech) cannot say.

What is more scary? A door to door salesman. If he is trying to sell that trash in my neighborhood, he is certainly deranged and a threat to honest people. Questions from a policemen where he has good reason to ask - never been a problem.

This article is silly nonsense because it intentionally ignores obvious facts (ie the fine print) and therefore is probably being hyped by the paranoid.

Re: Re: 12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

No, it clearly says "We hang" at the top with lots of space and some small print, then at the bottom says "George Bush WANTED".

If "We hang" and "George Bush" were a lot closer, then it would support some of your points.

Imagine you were looking at it from far away. The words that would stand out are:

We Hang







George
W Bush

If I

write a sentence

like this,

it is




still a

sentence.

But, to support your point, I have an idea. Please make a sign that says

Fuck






Niggers

and head into downtown Brooklyn. Make sure to argue that it doesn't really mean what it says. Thanks.

Personally, I think it could be interpreted in more than one way. For example, the poster could be read as, "We hang, George W. Bush." A reference to his death penalty legacy in Texas. Or, a reference as to his potential performance as President.

Tip for the day: Although we are taking about the President here, remember, assuming makes an ass out of you and me. :)

Kuro5hin and /. point to the FBI having gone and interviewed a gent based on his post on Kuro5hin, which is archived at Google (Kuro5hin is down for hardware problems):

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...smallpox&hl=en

You too can waste government official's time, energy and money. Just post raw speculation about terrorism! Because it's on the Internet, it must be true!

If intelligence can profile the Anthrax guy, why can't they figure out that Kuro5hin is built for exactly that kind of high-level clever speculation? Why can't they figure out that the web, not Hollywood, is where people will figure out the next terrorist plot?

I read about that when it happened. Basically, the deal was:

He speculated about how to infect the Vice President of the United States, and also speculated why it probably wouldn't work. Secret Service got wind of it, went and interviewed him, figured they had nothing to fear and let it go. The scary thing is, the Attorney General still *could* prosecute - but, I would imagine, probably won't. Still.

What's the point of discussing this if you can't be honest. If you stand far away, the words that stand out are:

We Hang







George
W Bush
Wanted

It doesn't even make sense, but of course you will see what you want to see, not the truth.

the "on your every word" is nearly as big as the george bush anyway. Scary stuff. Any way waht kind of terorist mastermind is gonna put that in his window?

jag -

the "on your every word" is in a thinner font than the rest. i'm sure that's intentional.

jtm -

okay there buddy. actually. it would be

We Hang






George
W Bush
anted

Nevermind the large picture of him.

The "anted" is smaller than the rest of the text. Period. I guarantee you that there is a point in the distance that the others would catch your attention better.

Now. I have a suggestion. Please make this sign and wear it in Brooklyn:



FUCK




NIGGERS
is a racist word.

Lemme know how the African American police officers react.

Re: Re: 12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

Let's have the title and section, tw.

Re: Re: 12/2: College freshman learns about dissent
 

Don't you realize that we can't trust the government? The government is a good thing but it's also a necessary evil -- if we give it too much power it will trample all over us. We don't want the Secret Service wandering into our homes and accosting us because we gave our opinion on something. What are we, in Russia?



So, speech kills, eh?

I get the feeling that you're saying that it's illegal, and therefore wrong. Is this what you're saying, or are you saying, "it's illegal, and also happens to conincide with morality."?

This is where you and I just disagree. Some speech may be stupid, but I don't think you should be jailed for any of it. I disagree with the KKK, but as long as they're not stringing people up, I am happy for the fact that they can say "Fuck Niggers". <br><br>

Well, my point with the "Fuck Niggers" thing is that the speech may be protected, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to piss off the wrong people, be them gangsters with guns in Brooklyn or Secret Service agents.

The girl can't really complain because it's pretty easy to see how the Secret Service could misread her poster. They're required by law to check that stuff out. No harm, no foul. It's a non-story.

Look at it again. "anted" is not smaller, just in a differnt font. Also, it shares the W with "W Bush". It's in a different font from Bush but not from the W, and it's bold, to boot, so there's no missing it.
The more accurate analogy would be to have a sign that says

Fuck





Niggers
is a racist word

As to the reaction, there will be some blacks who are offended. No surprise since there will always be those who chose to see what they want to see, not what is there.

Bullshit it's not smaller. Fire up photoshop, zoom in a few times, place some guides and count the fucking pixels.

Regardless, I still challenge you to make that sign and wear it. The point is, it's easy to see why the Secret Service would investigate such a sign, just as it's easy to see why you'd get your ass stabbed if you wore that sign in Brooklyn.

The fun's just getting started.

I just stumbled across this thread when I saw it being read by a spider, and am amazed at the position being taken by tw here. I had to go back and check it a few times. Sure, he makes some sense from a technnical view of the law, but his trust of the federal government is so contrary to his posts of today.

Interesting. I was surprised by this:

damn his eyes!

all 12 of them:)

The spiders are everywhere. :unsure:

That SS agent did his job as he is supposed to in a society that is tolerant, legal, and operates in the interest of America. What has changed? Those same people - ie Secret Service agent or Captain of the USS Bataan - are no longer permitted to do their job. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Was the SS agent then violating any laws or violating principle behind those laws? No.

Today's top management is so vile and corrupt as to need a junior general - Lt General Sanchez - to do Central Command. They could not find a responsible and experienced general to touch it. Federal agents are now ordered to spy on Americans without even a court order. Military personal are ordered to kidnap, murder, and even hide their charges from the International Red Cross.

What has changed? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top scumbag liars. And so 2,800 good Americans were murdered in Iraq for the glory and legacy of George Jr - who could not even finish his National Guard obligations and lied about that. What has changed? Science is perverted for the glory of that scumbag. Notice how many Americans now think torture is acceptable - who stupidly and with no grasp of reality believe that torture will get useful information. That is what has changed. Look at how many Americans, so much like Brown Shirts, deny a Universal Declaration for Human Rights and deny the Geneva Conventions. You have seen it posted even in The Cellar.

My facts have not changed. My tone has changed. No one ten years ago would have expected me to be posting so acidic. But then nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition. America has moved that much towards Nazistic concepts advocated by Urbane Guerilla and Rush Limbaugh. Even MaggieL is now tolerant and acceptable of such Nazi like attitudes. That is what has changed. 85% of all problems directly traceable to soundbyte liars. America has changed to a land where even religion should be imposed on all other people.

That SS agent was only doing his job. But today, that SS service agent is now ordered to investigate anyone who identifies administration lies about Iraq and who asks questions such as "When do we go after bin Laden". Do you realize how anti-American so many Americans have become?

$8billion to airlines with no strings attached - and Americans did not complain. Massive tariffs to enrich steel companies that are anti-American - and Americans said nothing. Hundreds of billions in government welfare to the drug industry so that they can maintain 40% and 90% higher prices for drugs - and America said nothing. I did not change. America did. American soldiers are given dog collars and leashes to torture prisoners – and then get blamed for doing what top White House management ordered. What changed? Me?

Rkzenrage posters in "Non-Americans are scum - and should be kidnapped" and in other threads would have never been relevant 5 and 10 years ago. Never relevant when Americans were acting as Americans. Those posters are sarcastically and cynically funny because America has changed that much and in that direction. Nazi like attitudes are promoted by Urbane Guerrilla. MaggieL even advocates the destruction of Habeas Corpus. And so many here have no problem with that. Cheney has openly said the White House does not have enough power. In Reagan and Clinton's time, we worried about a weaker White House with too much power. Today many in the Cellar advocate more presidental powers. What has changed? Me? My tone has changed. My position has not.

You forgot the Big Dic. :cool:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz...sh/script.html

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
[The Inquisition exits]

Sorry, Man. I know I hit a sore spot there. I was just amazed to see the change in your view of the government. I know you haven't changed, and that the government has. Hopefully in a couple weeks the brakes will come on.

It's not a sore spot with me. For example, we discussed Identity Theft. Two necessary objectives of Identity protection means 1) so that you can prove who you are and 2) so that you can confirm no one else is using your identity. Not possible without government action. Does that mean government is imposed on our lives? If my attitude had so changed, then I would now have to oppose those identity theft recommendations. ID protection requires a government bureacracy that works for us. I have not changed. That ID protection system is still necessary.

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. George Jr is now advocating a required ID program for all Americans. What is different? His program is for the benefit of government. That is 100% different from what I advocated: a program to service only citizens and intentionally created to not serve government. Attitude toward government did not change. What changed: we elected a scumbag and his Army of theives (Abramoff, Haliburton, Delay, Trent Lott, et al), child molesters, and even people to protect those child molesters (Hasbert). People that MaggieL approved of in 2002.

Remember what MaggieL posted repeatedly - 'foaming and ranting':
First strike and your out!: As a result, international kidnapping, wiretapping without judicial review, torture, unilateral and unjustified war, proliferation of nuclear weapons, and even blocking the Supreme Court from enforcing the Geneva Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights .... all these things MaggieL approved of as demonstrated in July 2002. Back then I was warming about this 'big dic' agenda that MaggieL still advocates today - including the arming of every citizen so that deaths are ....

So what has changed? The world is slowly learning what was obvious back in 2002; what MaggieL still advocates. Same idea that assumes a gun in everyone's pocket reduces crime also assumes 'might makes right' and justified 'Pearl Harboring' Iraq.

Not a sore point. Reality that should have been obvious to every Cellar dweller in July 2002. 30 years from today, younger Cellar Dwellers will do what I am doing now: challenge those youngsters to use a head on their shoulders and not one between their legs. 2800+ dead Americans directly traceable to 'big dic' thinking - such as from PA's Senator Rick Santorum, religious extremist - and advocated by MaggieL back in
July 2002 .

That's right, this is an old thread being revisited.
Welcome to the Cellar, by the way. :D

Good grief! Is it possible to resurrect a thread that old? :greenface

I guess it is! :redface:

This is so apropos to current events, with the "Military Commissions Act" allowing the gov to suspend all sorts of rights, that I didn't even suspect it was that old, and so didn't think to check the dates on the messages, just the articles. Sorry.

Wow, that's funny! A slam dunk of a inaugural post. Welcome, welcome to the cellar, OwenKL.

Owen, no need to apologize. Old threads don't get drug up for nostalgia (usually), they surface because they are still or have become again, relevant.
In this case, just checking the progress down the slippery slope.:(

Speaking of progress down that slippery slope, go here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/

Search for HR 5122 under "bill number".
Click on the last one, the one passed by both House and Senate.
Read section 1076, "USE OF THE ARMED FORCES IN MAJOR PUBLIC EMERGENCIES."

Sec 1076 is a link but doesn't go into any further explanation. I'd assume this is in response to Katrina but it does hold much more ominous implications.
So if anyone thinks 'Sonny" was an asshat, they vote against the Military Appropriations Bill?:rolleyes:

If you click the link, it takes you to a place where there's just a stub. Searching for the *second* instance of 1076 using your browser's find function finds this:
At the Shrub's insistence, martial law can be declared, allowing the use of military force and transferring the National Guard away from the state Governors. As well, the military units involved can be hand-chosen from anywhere, and don't have to have any relation to the area.

This can happen in situations like Hurricane Katrina, but also in cases of insufficient support for the government - like, as it's worded there, *wanting to elect non-Republicans*.

The government should never be trusted, under any circumstances. Especially now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Posters/54.jpg

Well that makes sense....how else can the give you the mandatory flu shots, you don't want, can't sue the maker if they hurt you and can't even find out how many were injured by the vaccine under the freedom of information act. :worried:

rkzenrage, seriously man, where are you getting all these fuckin' rad posters?

I have them in photobucket... I'll have to look-up the site.

Don't let him kid you, Ibram. He's got an in on the official posters for the campaign after the election, so he must be an agent of HS. :lol2: