11/15/2004: Marine's bridge message
 

http://cellar.org/2004/bridgemessage.jpg

One of the first things the Marines did in Fallujah was to take the two bridges across the river - one of which was the imfamous bridge where the dead bodies of two American contractors were strung up.

This Marine knew that, and so he's written a message there, which you can see at this link, a watermarked Getty image that I won't steal for here:

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/sou...x?iid=51739842

"This is for the Americans of Blackwater that were murdered here in 2004, Semper Fidelis 3/5"

And under that

"P.S. Fuck You"

(The 3/5 is because he's in the 3/5 Lima Company of the Marines.)

But in the above image he's blacked over the "PS Fuck You" and is posting another P.S., which you make out here: "Dark Horse". I guess that's his nom de guerre.

Poppycock, our Marines don't use bad language. :lol2:

Maybe once the Iraqis have their country back, someone will come back to that bridge and write:

"This is for the 100,000 Iraqi civilians murdered in this country over the last 2 years. Allahu akbar. PS, Fuck You".

Wouldn't they have to be able to write first?

or

Wouldn't they have to put their machete down first?

or

hmmm, let me think of a few more, I'll be back.

How about if they thank us for not letting Saddam fill the mass graves with another 300,00 or so. There are nowhere near 100,00 innocent deaths in Iraq.

Graffiti!! Vandalism! No respect for other people's property, I tell ya...

By the last count there were more than 100,000.

If by "last count" you mean researchers pulled it out of their ass a few days before the election.

What else can you do when there's no official count? Somebody should try to figure it out, using whatever means and accuracy are available.

Regardless of what the actual number is, the real question is, how many of those deaths are actually *innocent* civilians?

What else can you do? Well shit man; this is the Internet era; find the highest figure you can and trumpet it to the land. Let every echo chamber ring!

Just don't call that approach "reality-based".

The highest figure would have been 194000.

Let it ring.

Wipe it off, first.

Well fill us in then UT, what's the real number?

The highest figure is 194,000, 100,000 was the median. The *lowest* figure I've seen is 14,400, from www.iraqbodycount.org, which only reports verifiable deaths reported in the news. Perhaps if the US armed forces would start keeping track of civilian casualties, speculation wouldn't be as necessary, but as Tommy Franks says, 'We don't do body counts'.

I think he may be shooting for the whole, "there's too little information and much disinformation for us to judge" angle, with which I agree.

I'm not going to give a number partly because it IS impossible to come up with any reliable one. What you kind of have to do is extrapolate from all the information you do know. Combined with a bit of common sense.

For example, the 100,000 is said to come from air strikes. OK, in such a situation you would expect to also see a higher number of wounded - not just higher actually but much higher, in ratios of like 3 to 1. In order for that to be the case we would have reporting on the massive humanitarian nightmare, more kids without arms and legs, etc. When half the country is essentially at peace it would represent an emormous percentage of the population in the rest of it.

And what you have now, with the net, is a large population of people with an interest in passing along horrible "news" without much interest in confirming any of it. Of course in this case a necessary belief that the US Mil is 100% evil is also necessary, else the "news" would not be passed along.

Ok... but.. then what? We should just not worry about it? Go back to watching Oprah and Survivor and forget about that whole 'war' thing we got going on? Because we don't know the actual number of deaths we're off the hook?

This may also be a gesture of solidarity with the Army's 11th armored calvary division - the "black horse" regiment which has served honorably on many a battlefield. It was deployed to southern Germany during the early years of the Cold War and patrolled the German-Czech border. Later, the unit became a legendary fighting force in Vietnam and Cambodia for 5 ½ years, earning 14 battle streamers, and three Medals of Honor.

The 11th's assignments including patroling the border near Bad Hersfeld, Germany on the border between East and West Germany in the cold war. My father was a member of this regiment and stationed in Bad Hershfeld, and did two tours with the 11th in Vietnam, among many other places.

"I feel privileged to go on this mission with such a magnificent group, I am honored to serve with these fine men, they will do the Regiment proud."

Major Ken Royalty commenting on the deployment to train the Afghan National Army.

If a child is wounded in an air strike, in the dessert, in the middle of a war zone that Doctors without Borders etc. have abandoned due to safety issues - how long do you think they live? Especially with those huge, nasty spiders running around?

Obviously some people have opinions about this situation that are extreme. That the american military is 100% evil would be one of those extremes. Whatever. It's not something I hear or see very often, or I just don't give it much of my attention when I do. However, being concerned with the fact that innocent people are being killed does not equate, in my mind, to the US military being 100% evil. It is simply that; something to be concerned about. Something we definitely should not ignore or gloss over or just pretend isn't happening. Bickering about the actual number is no different in my mind than exaggerating it, it's just the other extreme. Like if only 14,000 innocent people have been killed then the US mil is 100% righteous?

No, it means filter your information, remembering where it comes from. There are so many biased sources that it is nearly impossible to form and informed opinion.

A good stance might be that the whole idea is bad/good regardless of the numbers and that it should be wrapped up in the shortest period of time and with the least loss of life.

Sometimes there just isn't enough information to base an opinion on. In that case simply reserve judgement.

If all one is prepared to do about the war is to spread baseless anti-US information from tinfoil-hat and echo-chamber websites, Oprah is a better choice.

Get your tinfoil right here.

I don't believe it. They're just saying that to make us feel good. :dead:

I think it was on cnn, where the average death rate among americans every year; from the flu was around 30,000. I wonder how many will perish this year, due to the lack of vacine. Speaking of innocent casualties, does anyone remember how many innocent american soilders were killed in vietnam. Anyway, whomever is making these counts of supposed innocents; what do they base this on. Who is actually innocent? the kurd, sunnis, shites, or the people who have gone to try and help these people...ie soilders,
organizatios such as the red cross and other humatarian organizations, who have been tortured and at times beheaded. I wonder how many will die here this year frm the flu.
Come to think of it how many of the innocents of Iraq will face the same fate.

Please enlighten me. Who is innocent in a time of war.p.s Thank God for my american brothers who fight for my freedom;even though I am far from innocent......... "Judgement is what defeats us" Marlon Brando- Acopolypse Now

Brown Thrasher - total toll in Vietnam is impossible to work out but estimated between 3 and 4 million with around half a million being north vietnamese soldiers and 250k or so being south vietnamese fighters. This doesn't include conflicts in Cambodia and Laos. US toll was around 50k, innocent my ass.

The only true innocents in war are the unborn and sometimes young children. You can be sure not one of the soldiers/fighters on either side are innocent, especially if they joined their ranks voluntarily.

Sir, you must know much more than I do about innocense. However, I feel whether drafted or enlisting voluntarily to protect ones freedom is a form of innocense. I believe when someone is born and then brainwashed into certain norms of their particular culture they believe what they are taught whether right or wrong. I'm really curious who actually is right when it comes to war.
I'm glad it's not my decision to make. When you say unborn, I don't know whether you mean a child in a woman's womb during war or an unborn child that never actually experiences the horror. I have a hard time thinking which is worse. I really don't know why I'm continuing this discussion because I've already admitted; I am far from innocent of many things. I think the grey area in life will soon or later engulf us. Until that happen people will die in the name of war innocent or not as they have for centuries.

It's mind over matter. Regardless of what is said about you or your actions, if you don't mind, it don't matter. :)

Bruce, I like that, but you know what I've found even if you do mind it doesn't matter.......... That's what so great about life you can choose your fights...........or not!!!!!!!!! :)

First of all...
BZT, wrong, try again :female:

Flattery will get you nowhere ;)
In a way, this is true. , but it also means that you're joining and training with a force whose purpose is to kill other people, whether you're out in the field shooting them, shooting a missle from a plane, monitoring intel to point out where the opposition is or making sure the ones who ARE out there killing in the field are fed, watered, clothed and armed and can continue to go out and kill some more. Drafting is a bit different, as it's not your choice, but not by much. In the end, you're still expected and required to pull the trigger.

I wouldn't want that decision either.

I was under the assumption you were talking about during wartime, so I mean any unborn during the time of war, whatever stage it might be in. Though I don't quite get what you mean....a child still in its mother wouldn't actually experience much of the horror of war unless the mother was somehow injured or killed.

You're not alone. There's a few billion of us in the same boat. 'S a pretty big boat.

I have to say that when it came to Vietnam, one could make a case that many of our war dead WERE innocents because they were drafted against their will. Even today, I feel that many of our young enlisted men are innocent. They don't read a bunch of scholarly magazine articles or engage in deep intellectual debates. They believe the lies that our government tells them -thus does the government make a mockery of a soldier's integrity. :mad:

To the Marines of Fallujah:

Kick ass and come home.

We wont allow the same treatment of US mil personel as from the Vietnam era. Iraq is not Vietnam no matter how hard some try to make it the same.

We're proud of you. Do the doin' and come home.

Touche :beer:

I apologize for the gender discrepency..and I disagree flattery has gotten me somewhere. I'm not sure where. However, thats another one of those grey areas. When a soilder is drafted or volunteers. He swears to do whatever to protect the interest of the U.S...... So if one volunteers; lets say for the sake of argument and there is no war going on at that time, if a war begins and he follows orders just as a person drafted is he less innocent than the draftee?

(I don't know how this discussion got going in the "image of the day" thread, but...). Look, BT, ever sit down and talk honestly with a young soldier? I mean without bringing in a lot of pre-concieved notions or judgementalism to the discussion.They feel they are doing the right thing - protecting their country and their people. They BELIEVE this with all their hearts. They did not sign up for our military because they are sociopaths who want an acceptable avenue to go out and be allowed to kill people. You or I may think they are mistaken in what they are doing. We may be right or we may be wrong. Ultimately, only time and history will reveal the truth, and that truth will only be what it is percieved to be by people who have their own blinders on and are limited in their understanding by the society and the age they live in. Most of our active duty military believe they are doing what is right and honorable, and it takes considerable courage to go out and face down an enemy army. I feel that the current war in Iraq is very wrong. I do not fault the soldier who fights for his country, however. I fault the politician who tells us lies and uses brave men as cannon fodder for some personal political agenda of his own.

Put like that, I'd say so. Like I said before, the job of a country's military is basically to kill other people in the name of that country's defense or offense. If you volunteer for that job, you volunteer to take on that responsibility. You're telling them "Yes, I will shoot that other man dead if you tell me I have to." So even without having picked up a gun, you've lost a little something there.

Side note, Don't mistake what I consider a loss of innocence as a measure of how good or how bad a person is. That's a whole other can o' beans.

I think you're all making a major mistake in paradigm here. You're laboring under the assumption that any war, ever, has had an absolute good side and an absolute evil side. There are no angels in war, ever. Our forces are not absolutely good, because we do, indeed, kill people who are not fighting against us, whether it is intentional, accidental due to poor planning, or simply an inevitable part of war. Nor is the other side absolutely evil: most ground terrorists are driven either by vengeance for a lost loved one, or they want the right to truly self-govern (to be allowed to choose, not simply choose from a list of "approved" candidates). The idea that there is an absolute good side and an absolute evil side to a war (and the inevitbale follow-up, that we're on the good side) is simply a psychological defense mechanism put into place by the people at home to justify the money and lives pissed away in the war effort. An unfortunate side-effect of this mental construct is that it blinds us to the fact that the only people who truly benefit from war, or at least the people who inevitably benefit most, are the priests and traders. One satisfies his ego (I will use the male pronoun because, lets face it guys, men are behind this shit a high enough percentage of the time to justify rounding up) and spreads the "message of God" to the heretics/infidels/pagans and increasing his own power, wealth and status of the world, and the other simply sells supplies to at least one side (sometimes both) to increase their power, wealth and status. As far as the ground soldiers go, know that most of them did not join the military because they wanted to; usually they join because of a financial need (people who don't *need* to join the military, but do anyway, rarely serve as the grunts). For the most part, these people are not fighting for grand ideals or to save the world. They're fighting because if they don't kill the funny-looking guy with the gun, he's going to kill them or their good friends. This was a mistake the peace movement made in 'Nam: we failed to recognize that the low-ranking soldier is an honorable man doing what he must during extreme times. Even those who committed atrocities in Vietnam and/or Iraq (though somehow I doubt anyone managed to commit atrocities in both wars. If one does exist, I applaud his persistence.) were simply responding to the horrific pressures placed upon them by these times. The peace movement's problem lies not with the common soldier, but with the massive systemic failures that forced the soldiers into combat.

As for the soldiers' protest, I agree with it wholeheartedly. I've agreed with it since we first went to Afghanistan.

Innocent my fuckin ass. Wake up and smell the coffee! There are no innocents. We are all guilty of standing up and fighting for what we believe in. If you are not guilty, then you are a pushover "pussy". How bout them apples?
Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!!!!!!!
capnhowdy,USMC :mad2:

You're joking right? Your profile says you're a freelance artist, either you're joking or you need to update it.

Not joking, jag.......... There is no such thing as an "ex" marine. Have a good day! :)

Enough about innocense. However. I do pray we keep a military no matter how guilty some consider them to be............. I'm afraid if we don't; we may not have enough cans to put those beans in!!!

We'll always have a military. By hook or crook, subjugation or legislation, our gov't will keep one intact somehow. No worries about that.

I volunteer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need I say more? :D

You know, you don't get to start out as a Capn.

Brainwashing is a powerful thing. Funny thing is...the only reason left to have invaded Iraq is to "Free 'those' People" and now we are doing so by letting God sort them out.

Hmmm...does that make sense to anyone? How can one deny God when one is acting like it?

Damn!

wah! Wah! wah!

A brain is a terrible thing to wash.

[quote]A brain is a terrible thing to wash.[quote]Here I would disagree quite strongly. Most brains need a good washing, especially those that become so dirty as to be useless.

Free at last, free at last........ ;)

FOLLOWUP. Andrew Sullivan points to this message which is a first-person account of some of the fighting in Fallujah, including some heroic accounts. It is great reading.

http://www.thegreenside.com/story.asp?ContentID=11151

And it closes with this:

Very good link!
Thanks, UT............

Judgement a is very powerful tool. The only problem is it's a fools trade. "How can one deny God when one is acting like It"? This appears to be a question you might want to ask Wha Wha............. "Hmmm... does that make sense to anyone"?

[quote=wah][quote]A brain is a terrible thing to wash.Please tell me where to find the proper cleaning solution to get a clean brain. I surely wouldn't want mine to be so dirty as to be useless. Maybe you could help me here, as you appear to be an authority on this issue..........
It is quite cumbersome, trying to think when the brain has not been cleaned in such a long time........Help me please. I don't want to be useless...

BT quipped: The proper solution is to take two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen, let them coallesce into a substance that is cool and clear, then drink it. Swish it around in your head.

That's about it, there's your proper cleaning solution, which is that which is what you and your brain are mostly made of. Then wait. Then later, when thirsty, drink some more.

Do stuff. Think about things. Things about lots of things. Live your life. Swish the thoughts around in the water.

Make sure to go to the deep and dark places of the brain too. The mind tends to hide the dirty things there. Those are the ones most likely in need of a quick scrub down anyway, IMHO. Many of them might be hidden. The water will find them...eventually.

When you get hungry, do not eat. Repeat: when hungry, do not eat. If you are modern person capable of owning, maintaining, and using a computer on the internet, this shouldn't pose an immediate threat to survival.

Keep doing this day after day. After a couple days, you can start to eat again, but eat only simple food. Maybe noodles and rice. Very basic foods, very...efficient forms of food/energy (i.e. plants). Animal food/energy will be better later if you wish to regain some of the mass you lose while washing, the beasts represent life more "condensed" than plants and are good for restoring strength of body.

Also, excercise. Get lots of exercise. I find walking to be sufficient, but that's just because my knees hurt when I run too much (old football trauma). Sports are also nice. Push the body forward.

Do that for a long enough time. Keep thinking of the deep dark places. Keep swishing arounds the thoughts. Think of the happy places too. You will probably need to as your body starts to feed, ever so slightly, upon itself. Don't worry, those pangs are completely normal and natural parts of life. Some people get them every day. Expect a bit of physical pain, as such is a near-universal part of a good brain washing technique. It is easier to endure the pain if you inflict it upon yourself and with good reason.

A proper brain washing requires good reason. It is the poor reasons you are wishing to wash away, one would think.

You should know when your brain is clean, generally. When you <i>really know</i>, you will know it is clean. If you have to think about it, you most likely need to keep the mental gurgle going.

Once you have decided the brain is clean, resume normal living. Notice how fresh and bright the world seems, relatively.

Also, try and stay on topic. And yes, I've been thinking about this answer for more than a day or two.

peace.

Also, very cool story from the Marine. I respect the fuck out of those dudes, it's their CinC I think is the fool. A fool who has made some VERY POOR judgements.

One of my friends has a similar story from a raid on a house in Ar Ramadi. It ends with the jihadi blowing himself to pieces, blowing my friend's arm a new hole, sending a fragmant into his temple that bounced off his skull, and worse. One his fellow Soldiers on the same raid can no longer tell stories, to anyone. Another Hero, born in death in a distant desert.

Like I said, brainwashing can be very useful. It is not to be undertaken lightly.

sorry for typose and long slightly off-topic post.

NEWSFLASH
 

Water has been discovered to be a very useful substance to aid in the cleansing of numerous objects. Studies have proven it also as an essential factor in hygiene for all parts of the human anatomy, including the brain.You will be updated as results from the experiment are revealed............... :cool: