Bush, Communism, and the County Dem headquarters
 

These are from Bradford County, pre-election. What started out as a joke within our gunslanging group turned into a real eye-opener in this area.

The missions went like this:

Look for the most visible location or the most potentially irritating location, and put the biggest FING Bush sign you can there. Planting a sign with direct lighting on it earns bonus points. Four by eight signs are obviously better.

All missions start after 10pm but preferably after midnight.

So, people are driving down the street on the way home from bible study -- no signs. When they woke up the following day -- BIG signs all over the FING place.

These big signs were popping up all over town and country. There was a lame effort from the opposition to plant their own signs, but they couldnt get the big signs and their little signs ended up vanishing in very large numbers. We also had people watching our signs because....we own the night.

The two below are some of the best; right across the street from the Dem county headquarters. The adjoining neighbor is also filing a suit against these ...people....for damage done by cars tearing up the lawn while getting in and out of the Kerry HQ parking spaces.

This was the most fun I have ever had at a job that doesnt pay money.

I didn't realize that Kerry was a communist...wow...that's news to me.

Excellent Exxxxxcellent! http://www.cellar.org/images/smilies/thumpsup.gif

Sweet!

Did you, uh, I mean the people who did this, hum the MISSION: Impossible theme while planting the signs?

You don't get out much then. He's was very cozy with the Vietnam comms, which is one of many reasons he lost.

Sure, he can speak well and has great hair. He would have been a disaster to have in the White House though.

Of course, that's just my opinion though. Mine and that of the majority of people that went to vote.

Relax Sycamore. You'll have your chance to actively participate in 06 or 08. Get those fingers typing for your local Dem party grassroots efforts.

Eh, no. The majority of people thought Bush was a better choice, not that Kerry would have been a "disaster to have in the White House."

Of course, your opinion didn't mean shit anyway, since this state went to Kerry. :)

This time, my friend, this time it did....and all the difference it made.

Not just this time...the last 4 times.

Sure, Kerry lost overall in the end. But how many times did Bush come here in the past 4 years? Yeah, that helped him a lot, didn't it?

Not only that, but the 100 million people is an interesting figure. Of course, the other two reasons to fight wars are capiltalistic and religious. Stalin as the world's premier communist probably accounts for most of that total, although China and North Korea have done their share.

I found this resource totaling death tolls from wars and other conflicts. If we try to total the results by the political/economic system of the aggressor or stated reason, we would find that monarchies and religion are also to blame for millions of deaths. In fact, you will find that many nations, including the US, are built on the suffering and deaths of neighbors, indigenous populations, or slaves. I would like to see an estimate of Native American and slave casualties in the US from 1600-1900.

Communism is probably more susceptible to famine than capitalism, but I'm sure there were deaths during the Great Depression in the US due to famine. Noone was really to blame for the Spanish Flu Pandemic, which killed 21 million worldwide and about 850,000 in the US.

We also do not know at this point how many civilians in Iraq we have killed in order to liberate them or who have died from starvation or disease due to the collapse of the Iraqi infrastructure as a direct result of the war and inadequate reconstruction. So I do find it ironic in Bush supporters bringing up the topic of 'death tolls'.

If these signs turn ordinary Democrats into blithering apologists for Communism who can't help but work Iraq into it, it would appear that they work correctly.

Gosh, that does sound like fun. Really brings back the memories too, we used to do that kind of shit all the time back when I was 12. Didja manage to get any pool hopping in?

It was. You should try it sometime. Are you allowed to stay up past 10?

Any more than the rest of the campaign turned Republicans into blithering apologists for Iraq who can't help but work 9/11 into it. :cool:

Here is a list of countries with communist parties. In some cases, these parties play a role in a coalition government. Let me know who you want to bomb next. :nuke: :rattat:

BTW, I don't apologize for Communism or for Capitalism. I just don't believe Stalin represents all Communism any more than I believe that Kenneth Lay represents all of Caplitalism or Boss Tweed represents all of Democracy. Nor do I believe you can discuss Communism without differentiating between, say, Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism - any more than you can say Democracy without discussing the difference between a true democracy and a republic, which is what the US actually is. If you want slogans like Communism=Murder or Capitalism=Greed, then for that kind of simplistic crap you have to talk to the Jingoes. There seem to be a lot of them around these days.

In power?? With a candidate running for the highest elected office in a democratic country?

That is an impressive list but really doesn't relate to the conversation. There are a large number of countries with Communists parties active. Are they in power? Very few. When they take power, then we'll talk about bombing them. We'll have to see what the "list of countries to bomb" looks like at that time.

It is interesting to me how many people here go out of their way to defend or explain Communism. Socialism I could understand but not Communism.

Any way you slice it, Kerry wont be the pres in the next 4 years and there are a boatload of people that are very happy for that.

So.....cry, insult and counter post on......the facts are the facts, Kerry lost and the cellar is short of right thinking people.

Look for the most visible location or the most potentially irritating location, and put the biggest FING Bush sign you can there. Planting a sign with direct lighting on it earns bonus points. Four by eight signs are obviously better.

So, people are driving down the street on the way home from bible study -- no signs. When they woke up the following day -- BIG signs all over the FING place.

Woo, yeah, I'm always glad to see when a very serious election is reduced to the goal of merely irritating people. Well, maybe you were expecting to change some voters' ideas with these signs and just thought that slightly-oversized signs were funny. You know, like clown shoes! Oh, man! I bet those bible study groups just went absolutely crazy when they saw those signs! How many of those church-goers' votes do you think you were able to sway away from Kerry? ;)

He's was very cozy with the Vietnam comms, which is one of many reasons he lost.

As an American, I'm so pleased that this election was determined by intelligent sound bites from commercials that were so well put together -- sound tracks and all. Without these, the common voter would have never have known that Kerry stood before the Senate and shamed all of our troops in Vietnam by revealing the war crimes the US was committing. I personally thank god that, today, we have an administration in the White House who will take every effort to cover these up and preserve the integrity of our soldiers. A clearly communist president would have been the worst thing to happen to this country! We're fortunate that slightly more than half of the population voted on the most important issues presented thirty second clips and voted for the Freedom-loving, small-government candidate!

*cough*...patriot act, phone taps, e-mail sniffing, spying on citizens, detaining citizens without cause for indefinite periods without fair trial, free-speech zones, faith-based government...*coughcough*

Of course, I can't find the site where I read about this earlier today, but the Sandinistas are making a comeback in Nicaragua.

As I said, Communists are part of coalition governments in Europe. Socialists are in power in Europe. Let's not forget monarchies, constitutional and otherwise. As for defending Communism, I don't defend it as much as clarify overly simplistic (dumbed down) labels. I personally do not believe that pure Communism is any more viable than pure Capitalism. Both systems require that you let people starve to death if their level of contribution falls below their level of need. This kind of system is not only immoral it is unstable.

I think you are confusing crying :cry: or insulting :wstupid: with debating in a calm and rational manner. You will notice that I did not once, ever refer to you as a boneheaded slack-jawed inbred pig-chasing cousin-loving redneck idiot. I would distinctly remember if I had ever sunk to such a low and despicable level. :D

Rich, don't be all backpedaling now. Your original premise was that communism didn't kill 100M people. Now you want to discuss nuances of different kinds of Communism. And put it on some sort of sliding scale with Communism on one end and Capitalism on the other. I find that to be kind of ignorant. What kind of nuanced Communism worked in each of these different approaches to it?

http://cellar.org/2004/COM.TAB1.GIF

explanation of terms, table

The notion that Capitalism and Communism are in contention for being able to provide for the citizens sorta died in the late 80s/early 90s when we learned that all the worst right-wing rumors about the U.S.S.R. were in fact true. The notion that we kids had when we were in college, that the U.S.S.R. was just a misunderstood grand experiment/hidden utopia? All that shit was wrong. Maybe you haven't been paying attention since college?

The war is over, Capitalism won. In fact the current controversy isn't whether it can provide enough for its people to live on, but whether it actually provides too much and becomes "unsustainable".

Am I really dumb, or does that chart actually say that a particular .106th of a person was killed by Communism?

I mean, if you want to talk about 'nuanced'...

The column header (000) says the column is in thousands, so 0.106 indicates 106 killed.

Meanwhile, I'm still seeking details on the Famine of the Great Depression. For some reason this horrible event was not detailed in our history books.

No, no one asked me to pool hop, they asked us to install HUGE Bush signs on their property.

Your version does sound funny, but no, that's not how it worked. This was not a prank for the property owners. It was by request. And the requests were many.

I didn't say that the total deaths by all Communist governments didn't total up to 100 million, I'm saying that not all Communist governments commit democides and not all democides are committed by Communists. The danger in believing that is that by bad things are always or always done by Communists is that this can cause one to assume that Capitalist societies are immune to abuses, that the freedom to buy a Big Mac means that all other freedoms are guaranteed. This kind of blindness is why Marx thought his revolution would occur in England and Jews assumed the worst persecution they would suffer in the 20th century would be in Russia, Poland and France.


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.4.GIF

Notice that while most of the table lists Communists dictators, almost half are not Communist. The ones who did not make the list, like Pinochet, are significant not for the number of indivduals murdered, but because of their ties to the US.

Yes Rich, and you have a sense of humor too. Fair enough ( Kerry still lost the election ) :biggrin:

No hard feelings. I personally get a little tired when a politician declares 'My good friend Senator Whistlewort......' before he pulls out the knives, but I do agree that it's possible to debate without getting really nasty ...unless Radars around. :eek:

Rich, you're backpedaling in your backpedaling. You called the 100M number an "interesting figure" and then casually failed to find evidence to support it. I produced evidence to support it. I'm not sure why the question doesn't end there, except that now we need to discuss the Famine of the Great Depression.

[troll]So do we total Bushes slaughter(s) under fascist or democratic?[/troll]

Hey Griff,

Seriously, do you have any credible stats on these "slaughters"? I keep hearing about them but is there a source?

Well, counting the military folks is easy, but counting the civilians is a bit difficult.

You know we're smart enough not to keep score any more. We learned one thing from Vietnam anyway.Johns Hopkins makes estimates however. Excluding information from Falluja, they estimate that 100,000 more Iraqis died than would have been expected had the invasion not occurred.
I obviously can't vouch for the reliability of their numbers.

I couldn't find evidence to support it, you did. According to your chart, about 110 million 'Communist' deaths and 59 million non-Communist. Considering that the two most populated areas of the world were the USSR and China, communist countries, then on a death per 1000 people chart, the non-Communist regimes might match the Communist.

Which brings me back to my point that noone who is shot cares about the politics behind the bullet.

Jesus Christ. Lotsa work for me around here.


Anyway......


Has everyone thought about how they might volunteer for their candidate or party in the coming elections?

It seemed to me that he found the number interesting, then compared Communism to other political systems.

He also noted, "Communism is probably more susceptible to famine than capitalism, but I'm sure there were deaths during the Great Depression in the US due to famine."

Well, there was that Dust Bowl thing during the Great Depression, which could be considered a famine of sorts. And wouldn't ya know it! People did die of starvation during the Great Depression! (Source)

You're welcome.

Hey, I got a great idea for you! How about you go play in some traffic! Believe me, you'll be much more useful in that capacity.

Wow, did that take a lotta work? Two-thirds of the way down the massive page:
Wow, that makes that 100M figure look ridiculous! Good goin guys, the US IS evil after all! It sure looks like the moral equivalence of herding college professors into the gulags!

I'm sure famine numbers aren't included in the genocide numbers. I'm sure if we included them it would be even more obvious.

As for this:
If I can get these cites you can too. Run the numbers, see what they say.

Not at all, actually. You might have been able to find it yourself if you hadn't been so busy taking Rich's comments way out of proportion.

I wonder how one would go about adding up the various crimes against humanity perpertrated by all the African, Asian and South American dictators and bloodthirsty tyrants the US installed and supported as a bullwalk against Communism, not to mention the 3-4mil dead in Vietnam alone. From Pinochet to Saddam to Idi Amin to list is long and bloody. While going though that list lets not forget the Shah who survived with strong US backing, amongst other things his secret police SAVAK, friendly chaps, had a habit of inserting broken glass and boiling water in the rectums of dissidents that liked the idea of self-rule. Sounds strangely familiar.....

Yes Jag, but the real issue is that .........Kerry lost, to some bumblefuk dumbass that everyone with two firing brain cells was absolutely sure would get his ass handed to him in a plastic bag.

Say whatever you want. He and the Brett girl wont be living in the oval office in the next 4 years.

Thank God for HUGE favors.

The continuing gradual crumbling of the american empire as it is slowly raped by the top 0.001% (not that kerry would have done much) is a relief but whether communism is responsible for more deaths than the US is more what I was referring to. However plenty of people expected him to win, myself included, it's difficult to overestimate the stupidity of the US electorate, it wasn't a shock.

Good to hear from you again, old pal.

Any comments on the recent Australian election? Big upset there too, from what I heard.

People are just "springing up dumb" all over the Fing place. ;)

Not unexpected, Howard is an astute political operator and Latham just didn't have the credibility, Howard also used some rather low smoke-and-mirror stuff which sadly people fell for. But hey, I said I don't beleive in democracy for a reason.

It is quite obvious that the US numbers are far lower than communisms. That doesn't excuse our record but we have to consider scale. Pol Pot alone kicks our butt.

I'm amazed, the war has been oven for 30 years and it seems the majority of the people in this country still don't get it.

It was a stupid idea. Not even a noble mistake, just stupid from the git-go.
To compound the problem it was run badly.....by politicians.
Our solders...excuse me...war fighters....are the best, hands down, but putting them in a conflict that they aren't allowed to win, is stupid. :mad:

Slang, get a job. :p

And then people view Kerry as traitorous for not holding a grudge against the people he was sent to kill.

Huh??? What are you talking about, Slang? Or are you just trying to be funny again?

I just noticed it's the year of the monkey, if course bush was going to get re-elected.

So you are saying that our political system gives us a choice between Kerry, who critics claim is an opportunistic lightweight, and Wow, way to go America!

Can we please have a Dean-McCain matchup in the next election!? No Bushies, no overly-liberal unelectable exotics, no neo-cons, no ex-Klansmen, no G-d driven fanatics, just two guys with different viewpoints, personal integrity and real honest-to-god populist ideals?

BTW, did you mean "Breck girl"?

I did, and it states that bad people come in all political shapes and sizes, and that numbers 1 and 4 of the world's bloodiest dicatators were at one point US allies. :3_eyes:

As for the Great Depression, thanks to the introduction of 'Socialism-lite', widespread famine was averted.

BTW, most of the New Deal was work-fare, not welfare.

That's great, Rich, but since you've already demonstrated a blatant ignorance of this recent history we can assume you're clueless about how it ended, too.

Don't make shit up, this is the Cellar.

By the way you did not "run the numbers" despite your claim, and we still await your findings about how other forms of government are just as deadly as Communism.

I don't really believe hes a bumblefuk Rich. Just making the point that to many Kerry really should have been the pres, I mean , Dems in office are just the natural order of things. Reps only get into office when the people lose their minds.


I did Fark that reference up though :blush:

Yeah, what he said.

You and that Brett girl. :3eye:

"recent history", is that some sort of oxymoron like "compassionate conservatism"? Excactly what did I make up? The New Deal? I didn't mention Stalin's earlier association with Hitler, but I didn't lie about his dealings with the US, either. Or our dealings with Chiang Kai-shek.

As for democracy, is the US prepared to support a democratic islamic state in Iraq if that is what the people elect? Is the president ready to deal with the mix of church and state when it's not his church?

Communism collapsed in 1989. Capitalism collapsed in 1929. The British policy of colonialism folded all throughout the 20th century. What is left and what is working?

ut, how come you;re being a dick to rich? will you be calling his kids sissies next? wtf?

slang, the fact that bush won is resultant from one thing and one thing only: stupid people breed faster.

why dont you join the army and go fight in his war.....you have a lot of extra free time and it seems like it would fit your penchant for gunplay AND republican chest thumping.

Understand, to me, arguing for Communism IS being a dick.

We used to think that stuff worked until we woke up and took a look around. India was starving to death until they denationalized their farming industry. Ethiopia didn't have the kind of famine problems that Live Aid was created to remedy... until they went Communist and nationalized their farming industry. The US never nationalized dick, and surprise, it turned out to be the right way to go. 70-80 years later we have basically done away with scarcity problems COMPLETELY, but because there were a few years of difficult economy four generations ago, extended by the (anyone? anyone?) Smoot-Hawley tariffs of 1930, Rich thinks he has it all figured out and it's the mean money-making capitalists keeping us down. Never mind that the less productive nations have spent all their time killing each other, the fact that a small handful of people died in 1931 means that the market is a failure and the equivalent of Stalinism.

Well, FUCK THAT KIND OF NOISE. Wake the fuck up, take a look around.

EVEN THE CHINESE ARE FUCKING CAPITALISTS NOW, AND IT IS GOING TO MAKE THEM RICH. No complaints about market economies in the far east... they've woken up and smelt the fucking coffee already. It's like they say, there are more Communists at Harvard than there are left in eastern Europe.

Yeah I know. It's tough seeing your guy lose. Be patient. There is another election coming. Get involved with the process, don't just be bitter.

I would seriously like to. My bro and two cousins are overseas. I'm too old right by the age limitations at this time, but with a little luck they'll change. I would seriously like to go in place of a young-married-with-children soldier.

In the coming months recruitment and enlisted numbers may decline. I'm already gearing up with a physical fitness program to pass a physical test, should the age limitations be changed.

You dont believe in the Iraq war and that's fine by me. You are obviously a sharp guy, that's your opinion. You have a lot of company here on the cellar. There are a lot of people that do support the war though. When I was visiting my brother I talked with as many soldiers as I could about going to Iraq. There was only one Kerry supporter that I ran into. The conversations were off duty and bro isnt an officer, so it's not like he or I could break their rocks over their answers.

The most common phrase I heard was "rather fight them over there than over here".

I'm sure they are all idiots too.

And....


Kerry lost.

You've heard of Amtrak, right? What the hell is wrong with you?

Rich, you weren't arguing for Communism, were you? It doesn't seem like it, but maybe I'm hallucinating.

And Slang, your stunt meant nothing in Pennsylvania. Congratulations!

I know. Some one else's in Ohio did. Don't be bitter though, there is another election coming. You can put your energies into electing the guy of your choice.

It is interesting and fun seeing you guys whine though. For months I read shit here that pissed me off and just let it slide. There are a lot of people here that dont like Bush. I can accept that. Why cant you accept that reasonable people from all over the country voted for Bush instead of Kerry? What, they were all fundies? Please.

I know, they'll all stupid. With that attitude and denial, the Dems will be losing even more elections in the near future.

And...

Kerry lost.

Because if you look at the fallout from the last four years, both short term and long term, you have to be fairly off balance to vote for that.

Secondly UT, read this, then look at the supporters. Then you might realize why capitalism, as it stands, is doomed. Or we are.

Who's bitter, Slang? I know Bush won, and completely accept that. I wrote a rather level-headed piece just after the election and purposely didn't say much about the aftermath on Cellar b/c of all the whining.

But here you come 3 weeks after the election to rub it in and to and post some prank photos with some ridiculous shit about Kerry and Communists...that's as bad as some of those moveon.org ads. It was funny at first, but now it's just stupid. You're getting exactly what you're giving right now.

The election is over...your boy won, but your vote didn't count towards getting him there. That's it. Enough. Enjoy your victory. Meanwhile, people like me are gearing up for '08...you should too, since your boy can't run again...yet.

There are a lot of off balance people here then.

One of the reasons I come here to the cellar is to learn why. Why do these people think such riduculous ideas? Where in the world are they coming from? They can't all be stupid communist bastards, so why is it they form these crazy opinions?

In asking these questions I've learned a lot about how many of you think and how you arrived at that thinking.

Maybe looking at the masses that elected Bush from the same perspective would help some of you.

But I dont think so.....because you just cant. You are smarter. And that is why you lose. And will probably continue to until you re-examin this attitude.

Sure, you're right. Learn the details about why people think you're wrong and develop a non confrontational way of explaining your position.

Without being condescending.

Then you might win. Maybe.

Good Syc. Getting involved does wonderful things for the grassroots orgs. I am still involved but not with 08 at this time. With 06. It seems we have to start working on operation "Good bye Ed".

This little stunt putting signs up in support of our candidate is really not a stunt. It's supporting our candidate. In this election it didnt matter. Maybe for the overall numbers but not for the electoral college, which is the key.

Both sides are gearing up and whatever the campaigns were this time around will be nothing compared to the next few.

It should be exciting and I look forward to volunteering more in the future.