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Anti-Semites? Who, Us?
Anti-Semites? Who, Us?
by Steven Plaut September 23, 2003 Say what? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? Us? We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers. Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and day. Trust us. Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Sure, we think that the only children on earth whose being blown up is okay if it serves a good cause are Jewish children. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Sure, we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We only denounce racist apartheid in the one country in the Middle East that is not a racist apartheid country. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion. We do not have an answer to how people who do not practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We think that all peoples have the right to self-determination, except Jews, and including even the make-pretend Palestinian “people”. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We hate it when people blame the victims, except of course when people blame the Jews for the jihads and terrorist campaigns against them. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We think the only country in the Middle East that is a fascist anti-democratic one is the one that has free elections. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We demand that the only country in the Middle East with free speech, free press or free courts be destroyed. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We oppose military aggression, except when it is directed at Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We really understand suicide bombers who murder bus loads of Jewish children and we insist that their demands be met in full. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We think the only conflict on earth that must be solved through dismembering one of the parties to that conflict is the one involving Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We do not think that Jews have any human rights that need to be respected, and especially not the right to ride a bus without being murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. There are Jewish, leftist anti-Zionists and we consider this proof that anti-Zionists could not possibly be anti-Semitic; not even the ones who cheer when Jews are mass murdered. These are the only Jews we think need be acknowledged or respected. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We do not think murder proves how righteous and just the cause of the murderer is, except when it comes to murderers of Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style “bi-national state”, although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of its sovereignty. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We think that Israel’s having a Jewish majority and a star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state. We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or “Allah Akbar” on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We condemn the “mistreatment” of women in the only country of the Middle East in which they are not mistreated. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We condemn the “mistreatment” of minorities in the only country in the Middle East in which minorities are not brutally suppressed and mass murdered. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We demand equal citizen rights, which is why the only country in the Middle East in need of extermination is the only one in which such rights exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. We have no trouble with the fact that there is no freedom of religion in any Arab countries. But we are mad as hell at Israel for violating religious freedom, and never mind that we are never quite sure where or when it does so. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. So how can you possibly say we are anti-Semites? We are simply anti-Zionists. We seek peace and justice, that’s all. And surely that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. |
Irrational? Who, Us?
by R A vingnutter September 63, 2003 Say what? Irrational? Who, us apologists? We have nothing against human rights as such, just as long as they're not applied to those filthy towelheads. That does not mean we have anything against them as such, we just think they should all be shot for questioning the right of Israel to execute the most systematic persecution by a 'western' state since the second world war. We are progressives. We also like to eat shit, isn't it fun making straw men? We love Arabs, just as long as they don't dare question anything Israel does. Sure, we have no problem with them being stripped of their land, their homes destroyed and lives being taken in simple eye-for-an-eye retaliation raids because of the actions of a minority but we have nothing against Arabs. Trust us. We get off on these raids, blood and guts all the way. Whether it be a RPG toting fatah member or a kid peeking out the window, who cares! Wacking an ageing, disabled religious leader leaving morning prayers with a hellfire missle really got our rocks off like nothing else. Sure, we think that every Jew who dies justifies the destruction of an entire township but that does not mean we are in any way biased. We think that the contents of a 2000 year old book justifies well, practically anything Israel wants to do really but it does not me we're against Palestinians having human rights as such. We, naturally think the filthy camel fuckers should be a bombed into oblivion and frankly, this is entirely justified by the Israeli invasion of Egypt in '67. Arabs should only have policies preached to them by hypocritical western states and certainly shouldn't question the actions of such states in their region. Even if their sovereignty is regularly violated by the only regional holder of WMDs. We always denounce the racist apartheid in one country to justify it in another. This does not mean we are irrational or illogical. It certainly doesn't imply we use double standards when really, we have no other leg to stand on. So how can you possibly say we are Irrational? We are simply apologists. We seek peace and justice for those we like, that’s all. And surely that does not mean we have anything against Arab scum as such. |
Not one square inch of land has ever been stolen by Israel. Not even the land Israel won in 1967 when they were attacked by Arab nations. Israel doesn't practice apartheid and claims they do are untenable.
I'd recommend you edit your post and remove the name of Steven Plaut as the man who wrote the bold-faced lies and baseless arguments you posted, or you might find yourself in court. |
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Radar, heard of parody? While I'm sure a nut from your end of the political spectrum would be among the first to consider legal action when his views are questioned if he can even work out which legal jurisdiction he wants to try that under, he's welcome. He may want to consider the content of his own rants first, I'm sure Le Pen would have an issue with being called the head of the Neo nazi Party.
However, it isn't fair to use someone's name, so I've modified that. The point is Radar, if one wants to put words into the mouth of their opposition is isn't hard, nor is it clever. My version is no more accurate than yours, that's the point. |
Actually your version is far more inaccurate than mine. Claiming your anti-Zionist but not anti-Jew is like saying, "The people of Spain should not go after the people who bombed the trains because they would be violating the rights of the terrorists to blow up Spanish people. They should allow it to happen and not retaliate. The Spanish people in Spain murder those who plant bombs on train tracks and that is wrong. In fact the entire nation of Spain should be destroyed.....But I don't have anything against Spanish people."
The fact is Israel treats non-Jews better than any Arab nation on earth treats non-Muslims. Non-Jews can live, work, vote, and hold office (including women) in Israel and are not harassed or discriminated against because of their religion. There isn't one other nation in the middle-east that can claim the same thing. The post I made of Mr. Plaut's article was very accurate and describes the hypocricy of the anti-Zionist cause. |
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I didn't say anything about HIS verson, I said mine. His is wholly accurate and truthful. What I posted is truthful. It's a great article, by a far more intelligent person than you. But then again, most people fit into that catagory including me.
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Five yard loss for using the "I'm smarter than you" argument, further five yards for any future comments claiming jaguar is "a poopy-pants" or "a silly-britches." No need to point out the obvious inherent stupidity of having a "factual" argument about an enormously one-sided and simplistic view of world events, because you both know that, right? |
Come on man, you've got to admit he's a poopy pants. That's clear from his posts. I will admit to occasionally being a silly britches, but I was young and I needed the money.
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When Radar gets frustrated, he resorts to name calling, usually of the "I'm smarter than you and don't need to listen to this, so I'm putting you on ignore, lalalalalala" variety.
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Shut up, windbag. Go play in traffic or something.
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Me telling you to "fuck off" is more intelligent than 97.5% of the crap you spew.
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And this thread has officially become too stupid to continue.
Yet another argument resulting in purposeful discourse. Pointless! |
CB, relax, baby. Go eat some prosciutto.
Radar and tw are like flies at a picnic...you swat at 'em, but they just don't go away. Then you try a bug zapper to get rid of them, and even then, that doesn't always work. So you give them as much hell as you can while still enjoying the picnic. As far as the original article, until Mr. Ireland provides a source for the article, I'll withhold a critique. |
See...the Jews have started shit again. :lol:
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Actually I'm like the fresh air at a picnic. I'm all you with the truth, and you can't avoid me. There wouldn't be much of a picnic without me.
I could genuinely care less about your "critique" but I'll give a link to Professor Plaut's website. Professor Plaut teaches at the University of Haifa http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=2777 |
I need a simple, unambiguous statement, here...just to settle it once and for all.
As I understand it, the Jews are right and everyone else is wrong. Have I got that correct? :D |
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Here's an unambiguous statement. Israel has ALWAYS been in the right and been the defender and the Palestinians have always been attackers and in the wrong and most of the world recognizes Israel's right to defend themselves when someone blows up their women and children. Most of the world recognizes Israel's right to exist as a nation on the land that they own which was obtained honestly without any theft.
Everyone isn't wrong. Just the people who say Israel is racist, stole any land, oppresses the Palestinians, or has been anything other than kind-hearted, peace-loving, generous, and patient to the Palestinians. The only time Israel has ever attacked them is in thier defense or retaliation for attacks by the Palestinians. |
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It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of fact. Radar does it all the time. A simple search on this website will reveal that. You're a great researcher, TW.. I'm sure you could find them. |
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I never once said it was out of line. And I never said it was ok for anyone else to insult you. I merely noted that it's something that you do quite often. It was not an insult. Quote:
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I was referring to tw as a windbag, not OC.
Good to see that Radar is still way out of touch with reality...then again, he does live in the Los Angeles area... The University of Haifa...yeah, that does say a lot. The guy is over the top...melodramatic! |
Notice that Radar quotes an article which puts words in the mouthes of it's opposition.
Jaguar reprimands Radar, stating "The point is Radar, if one wants to put words into the mouth of their opposition it isn't hard, nor is it clever." Immediately thereafter, Radar launches into a paragraph of hyperbole, putting words into the mouthes of his opposition. Ironic, isn't it? |
"It's like raaaaaainnnnnnn on your wedding day..."
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Torrere, I'd gladly support your statement, but then you'd just say "well gosh, I'm a ninny-livered guano-pirate with a propensity for elf buggery" and the conversation would further devolve into what you would call "crooken semantics and curried lambskins", whilst babbling incoherently.
I think that proves that I'm right. |
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I have a paper on The Awakening that I need to crap out in the next hour and a half, but I was reading an <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0198810784/qid=1106073268/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-1987600-2352128?v=glance&s=books&n=507846">interesting book</a> about the life of Muhammad last night, and there was an offhand comment about the troubles of the middle east.
Essentially, before Islam came around, the desert was populated by nomadic tribes. They didn't have a code of ethics, or any sense of morality; they had honor, and a firm grasp of "what goes around, comes around." Murder was prevented within the tribe by the absolute rule of the chief/mob justice against anybody who can't settle a scuffle properly. Murder between tribes was kept in relative check by limited proximity and blood debts--the whole Hammurabi "eye for an eye" thing. If you killed a member of another tribe, you could count on that tribe killing parts of your tribe. So the guy's saying something or other about how this works into the intricate politics of Muhammad's career, particularly about the idea of paying tribute for protection (wherein a more powerful group is honorbound to perform the retribution-killings for you, allowing an ethnic or religious or just smaller tribe to pay a modest sum for relatively violence-free living), and he offhandedly notes that part of the troubles in the middle east today is that this system has been removed and not been replaced. We have these countries, which were sort of arbitrarily grouped without much regard for ethnic groups or history (etc) by the colonists, and they're somehow supposed to be kept in check by the western higher authority of a punitive law enforcement agency. Except because that's antithetical to their traditional approach to life, they can't make it work well for them. And in the mean time there's no effective system. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it struck me as an interesting take on the problem. That maybe the "progress" we're bringing (e.g. western ideas of justice) is actually a step backwards, because it's removed a perhaps less "sanitized" if functional system without putting in place any effective alternative. Which is of course a very broad statement that anybody could have come up with ("oh, yeah, the middle east is fucked up"), so I'm not sure why I'm posting it. But it's a very interesting, and remarkably secular, book about the early history of Islam. (it should be noted that my geographic sense of the middle east is very, very vague, and I'm sort of lumping it all together as one big mess. And that I really didn't read anything in this thread aside from the first half of the first post, and a few nuggets of vitriol in the middle.) |
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(high five to you, radar, for excellent topical cleverness) |
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Then you state I was insulting in my post. Uh, so do you dispute it or don't you? I'm getting confused here..... Oh yeah, and you still haven't answered the question. You're very good at not answering questions, then smokescreening to a side issue. |
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Oh yeah, and you still haven't answered the question. You're very good at not answering questions, then smokescreening to a side issue. So, what did everybody have for supper last night? |
Raw flesh. :hafucking
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Israel is not Judiaism. Israel is Zionism. Judiaism is Jews. Israel, while having a population that is a majority Jewish, is Zionism. Just as a country that has a majority Islamic population yet clearly has the view of the Quran distorted is not Islam. Who gave Israel the right to settle on that land? Who gave them the right to try and force the Palistinians out of that land? |
Sorry, but the very few self-hating Jews who are anti-Zionism don't speak for the other 90%+ who do support it. Zionism is Jewish.
Who gave Israel the right to settle on that land? The rightful owners....the UK in 1948, and Israel won more land in 1967 when they were attacked without cause. If you claim the UK didn't legitimately own the land because it was taken by force, then we'd have to go back until someone didn't own the land by force which was when Israel owned it! The Palestinians were squatters, and NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER owned a single square inch of land before 1948. The rightful owner of land does have the right to force out squatters, even if those squatters have built buildings. Israel hasn't stolen any land ever. |
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Israel hasn't ever taken land in conquest. The only time Israel uses violence is in its own defense. Israelis WERE the original settlers of that land. The land they currently occupy was occupied by squatters who NEVER EVER OWNED THE LAND IN THE HISTORY OF THE PLANET EARTH, and the only land Israel has that wasn't given to them by its rightful owner (the UK) was the land they won in a war they didn't start when Egypt, the Palestinians, and several other Arab nations attacked them without provocation in 1967.
Not one speck of land was ever taken by conquest, or theft by Israel. |
So are you choosing to ignore the conquest in the old testament or are you simply not familiar with it? If that isn't taking land, I don't know what is...
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I'm curious, since I'm new to these boards. How come you can't be against zionist policies and the vile, dictatorial administrations of some of the other middle eastern nations?
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Welcome to Radar. Leave logic, reason and debate at the door. Radar is right. Everyone else is wrong, and stupid to boot. Don't waste your time trying to understand, water runs downhill, the sun rises in the east and radar is right and everyone else is stupid.
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Hell, this group doesn't completely agree on anything. That's a good thing. :biggrin: Oh...and welcome to the Cellar. |
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To be continued.... |
Wow... Thats quite a bit of evidence. I wonder if Radar will read all that.
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So Jacob and his family (70 people) move to Egypt.
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Never say never, Radar. Now, this, to me, has absolutely NO bearing on 1946 onward. It just addresses mdease's comment about the old testament. Source Material: Source: http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishh...mised_Land.asp |
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where is michael moore?
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Here’s a list of the nations in the Middle East in alphabetical order. Each has their freedom rated in Political Rights and Civil Liberties (1 is the most free and 8 is the most oppressed). These ratings were done by the unbiased group Freedom House at:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research.../countries.htm As you can see there was only one country in the entire Middle East that has the status of “Free” and that nation is Israel. Algeria Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Not Free Bahrain Political Rights: 5 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Partly Free Egypt Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 6 Status: Not Free Iran Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 6 Status: Not Free Iraq Political Rights: 7 Civil Liberties: 5* Status: Not Free Israel Political Rights: 1 Civil Liberties: 3 Status: Free Jordan Political Rights: 5* Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Partly Free Kuwait Political Rights: 4 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Partly Free Lebanon Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Not Free Libya Political Rights: 7 Civil Liberties: 7 Status: Not Free Morocco Political Rights: 5 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Partly Free Oman Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Not Free Qatar Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 6 Status: Not Free Saudi Arabia Political Rights: 7 Civil Liberties: 7 Status: Not Free Syria Political Rights: 7 Civil Liberties: 7 Status: Not Free Tunisia Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Not Free United Arab Emirates Political Rights: 6 Civil Liberties: 6* Status: Not Free Yemen Political Rights: 5* Civil Liberties: 5 Status: Partly Free |
Hatred of Jews, Israel goes back to the beginning
Dennis Campbell April 21, 2004 Anyone who believes that a "Palestinian state" or a mutually agreeable peace treaty will end the hostilities between Israel and its enemies is abysmally ignorant, badly misinformed or plain duplicitous. Those who have a worldview fashioned from a spiritual perspective know this conflict goes back thousands of years and will have no resolution until the prophesied Armageddon. In spite of public statements to the contrary, Arab leaders never waver from the necessity of Israel's destruction and the driving of the Jews "into the sea," in the words of master terrorist Yasser Arafat. Those who demand an end to the "occupation" of a mythical land they call Palestine ignore the fact that before the Jews arrived in modern Israel there were no "Palestinians" — in fact, there was little of anything. As industrious Jews transformed a barren land, "Palestinians" came to work and prosper, and are just displaced Arabs who are kept in a low estate by other Arabs to serve the aims of Middle East regimes whose primary purpose for existence, it is clear, is the annihilation of Israel. But where does this consuming hatred originate? Animosity toward Israel specifically and Jews in general goes back to the beginnings of the Jewish people. What we call Iraqis, Jordanians, Iranians and Saudis today were known as Babylonians, Philistines, Amalakites and Canaanites thousands of years ago. They were the implacable enemies of the Jews then and are now, thus making themselves the enemies of God, Who said in Genesis that "I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Many in America believe that much our unparalleled prosperity is due in no small portion to our steadfast support of Israel. It also may be said that the desultory and miserable condition of the Arab states is due to their cursing of Israel. God proclaimed through the prophet Malachi that "...I am the Lord, I do not change. Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob." If He does not change, that means He has not changed, and the enemies of the Lord of yesterday remain His enemies today. To the eternal God, nothing today is different from 3,000 years ago. And what was the opinion of the Lord toward these foes from antiquity? Listen to what He says of ancient adversary Amalek, who harassed the children of Israel as Moses led them from captivity in Egypt, speaking through the prophet Samuel: "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" Throughout the days of His holy prophets, from Moses to Malachi, the Almighty proclaimed to Israel, "I am the Lord," and assured Israel of His love and protection: "I am the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage...." "...I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior...." As the international community increasingly opposes Israel and anti-Semitism flares anew in Europe, the remaining staunch ally of Israel is America, but that friendship is in jeopardy as those on the left and in academia resolutely work to severe the bonds that have remained so strong for so many years. In that light, consider the words of the prophet Zechariah, describing the final hour of Jerusalem when the armies of the nations amass against her: "And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, and their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths." The Lord will stand today against the enemies of Israel because they have made themselves His enemies, just as in the days of Joshua and David. We know He will, for we have this promise: "On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, 'I am the Lord your God.'" These are words the foes of Israel would do well to heed. Dennis Campbell is a freelance writer and reformed liberal ex-journalist living in New Mexico. He is a contributor to various Internet conservative forums. |
Human Rights In Israel
Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of 5.6 million people, nearly 1.1 million-19 percent of the population-are non*Jews (815,000 Muslims, 163,000 Christians and 96,000 Druze). Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Today women hold 9 of the 120 Knesset seats. Eleven Arabs and one Druze are in the current Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's Consul*General in Atlanta. Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. Today, more than 200,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was but a single Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools. The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This was to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request. Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non*veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process. On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs. Another impediment to the full integration of non-Jews in Israeli society is the fact that Arab municipalities have historically received less financial support from the government than Jewish ones. Efforts are being made, however, to redress the imbalances. According to the State Department's 1996 Human Rights Report, "Government efforts to close the gaps between Israel's Jewish and Arab citizens have resulted in an estimated 160 percent increase in resources devoted to Arab communities between 1992 and 1996." The United States has been independent for well over 200 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, more than three decades after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 49 years. Religious Freedom "The law provides for freedom of religion, and the Government respects this right," according to the State Department report. In fact, each religious community has legal authority over its members in matters of marriage and divorce. They also control their own holy places in Jerusalem and elsewhere in the country. Political Rights "The law provides citizens with the right to change peacefully their government, and citizens exercise this right in practice through periodic, free, and fair elections held on the basis of universal suffrage for adult citizens," the State Department observed. In 1996, voters elected the Prime Minister by direct ballot for the first time. The State Department report also notes that "Israel is a parliamentary democracy, with an active multiparty system representing a wide range of political views. Relatively small parties, including those whose primary support is among Israeli Arabs, regularly win seats in the Knesset. Elections are by secret ballot." Legal Rights "Israeli law prohibits arbitrary arrest of citizens," according to the State Department, "and the Government observes this prohibition....The law provides for an independent judiciary, and the Government respects this provision in practice. The judiciary provides citizens with a fair and efficient judicial process." Israel inherited and continued certain laws adopted by the British. One is the use of administrative detention, which is permitted under certain circumstances in security cases. Israel's policy is that administrative detention is only to be used against violent offenders. The detainee is entitled to be represented by counsel, and may appeal to the Israeli Supreme Court. The burden is on the prosecution to justify holding closed proceedings. Often, officials believe presenting evidence in open court would compromise its methods of gathering intelligence and endanger the lives of individuals who have provided information about planned terrorist activities. Still, many detention orders are reduced or reversed on appeal. In addition, Israel's prisons are probably among the most closely scrutinized in the world. One reason is the government has allowed representatives of the Red Cross and other groups to inspect them regularly. The State Department observes that "laws and administrative regulations prohibit the physical abuse of detainees." The courts and a variety of Israeli human rights organizations carefully monitor the treatment of prisoners. Nevertheless, abuses do occur, as they do in the United States. The death penalty, which had been used by Jordan, has been applied just once. That was in the case of Adolf Eichmann, the man largely responsible for the "Final Solution." No Arab has ever been given the death penalty, even after the most heinous acts of terrorism. Alan Dershowitz put the Israeli legal system in perspective in a speech before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's annual meeting (May 23, 1989): One does not judge a democracy by the way its soldiers immediately react, young men and women under tremendous provocation. One judges a democracy by the way its courts react, in the dispassionate cool of judicial chambers. And the Israeli Supreme Court and other courts-have reacted magnificently. For the first time in Mideast history, there is an independent judiciary willing to listen to grievances of Arabs-that judiciary is called the Israeli Supreme Court. LandOwnership In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf, for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land. Employment "Workers may join and establish labor organizations freely," the State Department noted in its report. "Non*resident workers in the organized sector, including Palestinians from the occupied territories, are represented by Histadrut and are covered under its collective bargaining agreements. They may join, vote for, and be elected to shop*level workers' committees. Labor laws applicable in Israel are applied to Palestinians in East Jerusalem and Syrian Arabs and Druze on the Golan Heights." Discrimination Israel has one of the broadest anti-discrimination laws of any country. According to the State Department, "The law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, marital status, or sexual orientation. The law also prohibits discrimination by both government and nongovernment entities on the basis of race, religion, political beliefs, and age." |
U.S. Aid To Israel (Part I)
by HonestReporting.com The Christian Science Monitor delegitimizes and sensationalizes the amount of U.S. foreign aid to Israel. This year's "Lack of Balance Award" goes to the Christian Science Monitor, for its article, "Economist Tallies Swelling Cost of Israel to U.S." (December 9, 2002) The article vastly overstates the size of American foreign aid to Israel, saying that Uncle Sam spends twice as much money backing Israel "in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians" than it did on fighting in Vietnam. Charitable donations aren't spared the poison pen despite the fact that they're private, because the donations are a "net drain" on America's economy. The Christian Science Monitor presents wildly exaggerated figures, supplied by economist Thomas Stauffer. The article claims: - The U.S. has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel, and "those outlays are [considered] part of the total package of support for Israel." - Stauffer tags Israel with the bill for rising oil prices (cost to U.S.: $450 billion), and a U.S. economic recession (cost: $420 billion). - U.S. charities have supported Israel to the tune of $50-60 billion. Though private in origin, the money is "a net drain" on the United States economy, says Stauffer. - U.S. policy and trade sanctions against adversarial regimes reduce U.S. exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer claims. Not requiring Israel to use its U.S. aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs. - Israel has blocked some major U.S. arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s, costing the U.S. $40 billion, says Stauffer. * * * And how does the Christian Science Monitor balance these overblown claims? With one lone lukewarm sentence: "Many Americans would probably say it is money well spent to support a beleagured [sic] democracy of some strategic interest." A beleaguered democracy of some strategic interest?! Consider the facts: - Israel is America's most trusted and reliable ally in the Middle East, the only state in the Middle East that publicly declares support for the U.S. -- despite the fact that Israel may bear the brunt of Saddam's weapons when an American offensive begins. - Israel is on the frontline in the battle against Islamic terrorists, and provides the U.S. with key intelligence information and frontline military operations. As opinionjournal.com notes: "In 1981 Israel destroyed Iraq's Osirak reactor, setting back Saddam Hussein's quest for nuclear weapons. How much money and how many lives did this end up saving America?" - Israel is the sole democracy in the Middle East, a region dominated by authoritarian and military regimes. Israel upholds Western ideals of freedom of expression, a free market economy, equal opportunity, women's rights, judicial review, and minority representation in elected offices. The U.S. spends untold billions spreading the ideals of democracy around the world; in Israel, it comes for free. - The first U.S. President to supply large-scale military aid to Israel was Richard Nixon in 1970, in order to balance against the radical Arab states being financed by the Soviet Union. The U.S.-Israel partnership served its purpose by forcing such East Bloc clients as Egypt's Anwar Sadat to break from the Soviet fold. Having Israel do the dirty work in one of the world's most dangerous regions has, financially for the U.S., been a bargain. - Israel partners with the U.S. in technological development, medical research, agricultural innovations, and a wide range of cultural exchanges. In addition, many Israeli-developed technologies serve as integral components of the U.S. military arsenal. * * * |
U.S. Aid To Israel (Part II)
The United States gives out $13.3 billion in direct foreign aid annually. The vast majority of these recipients express animosity toward the United States in state-sponsored media, and routinely vote against the U.S. in international forums. Below we contrast Israel's "value" to the United States, with that of other Mideast regimes like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian Authority. For additional background information, we highly recommend AIPAC's overview of Israel's strategic value to the United States: http://www.aipac.org/briefbookissues.html Also read "The $36 Billion Bargain: Strategy and Politics in U.S. Assistance to Israel" by A.F.K. Organski (Columbia University Press). Organski is a well-respected political scientist whose work has become textbooks for political science classes throughout the country. And cheers to Howard Feinberg for this nice follow-up article refuting the claims in the Christian Science Monitor: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=5103 ===== EGYPT ===== Egypt receives $2 billion annually in U.S. foreign aid, including some of the world's most advanced weaponry like F-16 combat planes, Patriot missiles, M-1A1 battle tanks, and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, more advanced than those used by Israel. And yet: - The government-sponsored media in Egypt has spread disparaging remarks against U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell ("bird brain"), and against other American leaders. In an article entitled "Oh, No, Mr. Bush," the editor of the government-sponsored daily, Al-Akhbar, wrote: "I say to you, Oh Mr. Bush, that you alone are responsible for the feeble image of the U.S., whose name smacks of lack of credibility and lack of transparency, and has become a synonym for oppression and for abnegation of justice and international legitimacy..." (source: memri.org) - The government-sponsored daily, Al-Akhbar, has perverted American history and threatened American landmarks with destruction. Columnist Mahmoud Abd Al-Mun'im Murad wrote: "The U.S. treats the [Arabs] as it treated the slaves inside the American continent... The real issue is the Arab-American conflict -- Arabs must understand that the U.S. is not 'the American friend' -- and its task, past, present, and future, is [to impose] hegemony on the world, primarily on the Middle East and the Arab world... The Statue of Liberty, in New York Harbor, must be destroyed because of following the idiotic American policy that goes from disgrace to disgrace in the swamp of bias and blind fanaticism." (source: memri.org) - The Egyptian government recently rejected a U.S. request to cease anti-Semitic television programming ("U.S. Objects to 'Protocols' on Egyptian TV" - November 1, 2002, The New York Times). - In international forums, Egypt stands in opposition to American interests. Figures show that in the United Nations, Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time. Yet the flow of U.S. aid continues... ===== SAUDI ARABIA ===== The United States, through oil imports, pours about $10 billion annually into Saudi Arabian coffers. Here's what the U.S. gets back in return: - A September 2002 cartoon in the Saudi Arabia-based "Arab News" depicts President Bush as an inflatable doll, with Donald Rumsfeld holding the pump and blowing him up into a likeness of Hitler. http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.Asp?...&ArM=09&ArD=21 - In an August 2002 editorial, the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh defamed the totality of American history: "If America wants to open up the issue of compensation for those who died in the two towers, it must agree to the establishment of an international court that will examine [its own] war crimes, plundering, coups, what American intelligence did with the drug barons, the policy of abductions and murder, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the claims still pending regarding the black slave trade, and the deliberate annihilation of the Indians -- and apply all this to all countries, without statute of limitations, so that we feel we live on one planet that functions according to the same moral principles." (source: memri.org) - Fifteen of the September 11 hijackers were Saudi nationals, causing direct and secondary economic damage in the hundreds of billions of dollars. The wife of a Saudi prince has funneled funds to al-Qaeda terrorists, and a report from the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations says: "For years, individuals and charities based in Saudi Arabia have been the most important source of funds for al-Qaeda; and for years, Saudi officials have turned a blind eye to this problem." http://cfr.org/publication.php?id=5080 - The U.S. State Department reports that freedom of religion does not exist in Saudi Arabia. Only Muslims can be citizens. The government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation, and sometimes torture for engaging in overt religious activity that attracts official attention. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/c7600.htm - Figures show that in the United Nations, Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time. Yet the U.S.-Saudi alliance continues... ===== PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ===== The United States gives over $100 million annually in foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority. And yet: - In November 2002, PA legislator Nahed Munir Alrayis, writing in the official PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, threatened the United States with suicide bombings. He wrote that U.S. policy will leave the Arab and Islamic world so hopeless that they will have no choice but to resort to "suicide attacks against the United States, its armed forces and its navy." - Anti-American sentiment runs high in the Palestinian street. The U.S. flag going up in flames is a common site at Palestinian rallies in the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon. (http://honestreporting.com/graphics/flagburn.jpg) - In November 2002, the White House officially announced that the Palestinians are not in compliance with agreements signed with the United States and Israel. According to the State Department's semiannual report on Palestinian compliance, PA officials have supported violence "as a proper path towards an acceptable end to the conflict, even as they called for renewed negotiations... There is strong evidence that some members of the PA security forces were allowed to continue serving even though their participation in terrorist incidents was well known." And yet the PA continues to receive its flow of U.S. aid... ===== THE FINAL WORD ===== If the Christian Science Monitor wants to criticize how U.S. aid is being spent, it is picking the wrong target. For in deep contrast to other Mideast recipients of U.S. foreign aid, figures show that in the United Nations, Israel votes with the United States 94% of the time. |
Ok, look, if what's going on over there is so important to you then pack a bag and take off.
But please, please, PLEASE, shut the fuck up about it already. Nobody is going to agree with you and I'm rather certain everyone is tired of hearing about it. It's getting so I'm having TW flashbacks, geez... |
I pretty much agree with Radar on a lot of Israel, although I agree this thread is next to useless. Big cut-n-pastery doesn't usually have the effect here that people might want it to. I can read anonymous opinion anywhere, here I want to read real people.
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uM.. What do you think he's trying to say? I agree with alot that Radar says about Israel, until he uses words like "never". |
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