If you're going to commit suicide...
 

...at least limit it to yourself.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/26/tra...ent/index.html

GLENDALE, California (CNN) -- A suicidal man will face murder charges after parking his vehicle on railroad tracks Wednesday, causing a commuter train collision that killed at least 11 people outside Los Angeles, officials said.

"This whole incident was started by a deranged individual who was suicidal," said Glendale Police Chief Randy Adams.

The suspect, identified as 25-year-old Juan Manuel Alvarez, got out of the Jeep Cherokee before impact and watched the collision, Adams said.

I live about 3 miles from where the crash occured. I take that same train into town when I have a meeting.

Sobering.

and he thought he was depressed before!

or don't try to chicken out at the last second...

that's the problem with people who only think they want to die.. if you're going to do it, there are quite a few other more sure ways I can think of.. of course they would require a little more thinking than parking your dumb ass on a train track.

and would be a little more spectacular.

strap some dynomite to yourself, down a bottle of percaset with a fifth of whiskey, light the fuse cut your wrists and jump from a tall bridge in the winter... multiple redundancies are good :)

Don't know about this guy, but here in Chicagoland we get a fair number of "walked in front of the train" accidents. One of the conductors told me they do it because it's difficult to prove that it's a suicide - so the next of kin can collect on any life insurance.

I have heard that we have so many "train" suicides in Sydney that the government decided a few years back not to publicise them in order to cut down on the "copy cats". I don't know if this worked. We haven't had some idiot drive his car onto the tracks, thankfully. As a matter of fact I don't think we have any level crossings left in the Sydney metro area. I'm pretty sure the last one was replaced with an overpass a few years ago. We do get idiots (usually kids, and young adults) throwing large stones onto the tracks in front of a train (and they throw them at cars on highways too). People have been killed that way. Sickos. :mad2:

i've got 2 friends that work for amtrak. they both agree that if you say you haven't killed someone in your first 18 months, then you are delusional or a liar. apparently, it is so common that they have go-to counselors to help the guys out.

There was a similar incident here a while back in a small village called Ufton Nervet. Apparently, people putting cars on tracks is common here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufton_Nervet_rail_crash

All the patients I admit who are depressed and suffering from "suicidal ideation" come to the hospital with two suitcases stuffed with clothes, hair dryers, make-up, cartons of cigs and the latest Grisham. The first thing they want to know is, "when is snack time?" The second thing they want to know is, "when can we smoke?" Hm. Guess they are really in-tune with their inner dialogue and are heading it off at the pass. Either that or they need to be admitted for the disability check to keep on a-coming. When my sister attempted to kill herself (OD) she not only failed to pack a bag, she had to be squaded into the ED--she was a tad more serious and a tad less game-y.

I used to take that train route every day. Freaks me out to think...

I heard on a radio show yesterday that IF he is charged with murder, they will push for the death penalty. Hmm. Why wait? :shotgun: :greenface

Friend of mine is an engineer for NJTransit.

He made it five or six years, I think. Took it a lot harder than he would have if it had happened earlier in his career.

Oh, and I admitted a guy who somehow managed to fuck up suicide by train ... exactly how he laid on the tracks in such a way to lose both legs, one arm, and a bit of his torso including some large intestine, I haven't quite worked out.

It makes you wonder what is going through these people's heads... The guy who killed the 11 people just got out of his car and watched the crash take place and did nothing. :vomit: Hmmm. Well, one way or another he will get what he had came for, at least if they push for the death penalty. :dead:

So the State is going to kill him because he screwed up when he tried to kill himself. Nice logic.

Suicidal thoughts tend to be transitory, so by the time that the state is ready to kill him, he won't want them to.

One would think the dude has a built-in insanity defense, though.

Here's a thought ... what if we don't know it yet and someone he wanted dead was on the train and this was all part of a elaborate plot ...

I feel a Law and Order episode coming on ...

I'm sort of mixed on this one. Personally, all he had to do was ask and I would have helped, but the state is going to spend a fortune helping him do something, which as Wolf said, he isn't going to want done, although if you read some of the news lately, the guys who want to be punished are now considered insane.

Probably. I remember from my teens (when I watched way too much TV) an episode of something or other that was obviously based on the Kent State incident with the names filed off.

I think the whole affair is tragic, ironic, and darkly humorous all at the same time.

:thumbsdn: I do not think it would a good idea to kill someone who wanted to die in the first place, because is like giving him what he wanted. Besides what do you learn of your actions after you are dead.

Suicidal thoughts are not necessarily transitory; it can be a sickness also, in this case the person is always, always, always, suffering from depression: it comes in two states in one state the person is highly euphoric in the other state is depressed. And the worst of this sickness is that the person may not necessarily know he or she suffer from it, he or she may not even know is depressed.

I agree with all of you in one thing he should not attempt to commit suicide that way, he could have done something else that would not risk the life of others, maybe he did not realized at the moment the consequences of his acts who knows.

It's all irrelevant now anyway, according to recent updates on this tragedy.

So much for the insanity defense.

Oh, and to clarify something that I want to die soon said ...

It's not just depressed people who become suicidal, they are just best known for/identified with it. A person with any psychiatric diagnosis may be suicidal.

nothing rekindles romance like derailing a train and killing innocent strangers.

you got it jag. i was running late on valentine's day so i only got my wife flowers and earrings... if only i'd had time to cause a tragedy, then she'd no i REALLY care.

Theres nothing more romantic than long hours staring deeply into one another's eyes through bullet proof glass and having prison guards hear every word you utter to each other!! ahhhh.... love is bliss!

And now I am certain that I prefer animals to humans.

brianna, you obviously need more coffee - before you just said you like them hung like a... :eek:

Yeah, I did just wake up. What was I thinking? ;)

I, too, have a friend who is a head engineer for Amtrack with 30 years experience as a railroad engineer. He tells me that he still has nightmares about the people he has killed. He said one man just suddenly stepped out on the tracks in front of the Amtrack train my friend was driving as it came around a curve.

The man just stood there and stared at the on-coming train. Not a damn thing my friend could do. Trains don't exactly stop on a dime and even if my friend had attempted to stop the train, it would have most certainly been derailed, causing the deaths of God knows how many passengers. My friend watched as the train hit the man, severing his body into fragments and a spray of blood. When they arrived at the next stop, the reaction finally set in, and my friend got out of the engine car and started throwing up and crying at the same time. My friend couldn't drive a train for 3 months after that incident.

People who choose this method of suicide are unbelievably stupid and selfish. Why not just drive your car off a cliff?

Why not just overdose on your lethal drug of choice and leave innocent bystanders-and the cliff-out of it? People who commit suicide, no matter which way they go, are indeed unbelievably stupid and selfish. My co-worker had to clean up the blood and brains her son left behind after he shot himself in the head at her house.

I saw the Insomniac episode where Dave Attel rode with a guy whose company cleans up homicide/suicide scenes at hotels. Even without a body there it was pretty gruesome.

My theory is that some suicides are the ultimate 'now they will notice me' act of the terminally ignored. These aren't the ones who want to be stopped, they are the ones who intend to, pardon the pun, 'make a splash' as their final gesture.

well.. the whole suicide issue is a tricky one with me, I believe that a person has a right to take his or her own life, however.. here's the tricky part I don't think they have the right to do so at somone elses expense (other than the obvious emotional damage the act itself will cause).

in '99 my roomate killed himself, and I was the one who found him (the screwed up thing is that I didn't find him for three days, it was a decent sized house and he was known for taking road trips without telling anyone.. so I went into his room to close the window as I was turning on the AC.. suffice to say I didn't sleep well for about a year. and it has caused me some problems with forming attatchments to people.. heh also why I live alone now)

That sounds like a case of bi-polar disorder to me. There ARE certain useful meds for that available these days, and research continues on others.

Death is inevitable for us all. Life is not. Life almost always has some possibilities, no matter how small. Death holds only the certainty of the grave . The way I see it, one can always kill one's self tomorrow.

I saw the Insomniac episode where Dave Attel rode with a guy whose company cleans up homicide/suicide scenes at hotels. Even without a body there it was pretty gruesome.

Yeah, our neighbor blew his brains out, in the middle of the foyer such that blood and brains were splattered in the livingroom, hallway, bedroom, and of course the foyer itself. They were renters, which meant the landlord and his wife had to clean it all up themselves because they couldn't afford one of those cleaners (they inquired, but it runs in the several thousands, apparently.) Still cost them 3 rooms' worth of new carpeting.

Guess he didn't get the security deposit back, huh?

After reading this thread, I'm stunned at how many people on the Cellar (not all are represented in this thread) have either first- or second-hand experience finding suicide victims.

I almost wonder if society needs a place for these people to go to off themselves. Maybe what we need is a SuicideAtorium - a place for people to go to do the final deed. I wonder if any of them would use it. What would such a place be like in order to attract people who want to kill themselves but without somehow encouraging it?

I'm not being entirely cynical. This wallpapering of people's homes/cars/trains/lives with grey matter needs to stop.

Doctor K tried. Isn't it Oklahomo that has the diginity in dying thing as well?

I can see the advertisements now...

Well, in my neighbor's case, he wouldn't have benefitted from a SuicideAtorium, because it was very much a revenge suicide. His wife had left him (because he had stopped taking his medications and started drinking again) and he knew she was supposed to be coming over to get some of her stuff. He was sitting in a chair in front of the door, waiting. When he heard a knock at the door--bang. Unfortunately for him, the knock at the door wasn't even her, it was a cop she had called to check the place out first because she knew he owned a gun. But he'll never know that.

Demanding someone stay alive, regardless of how bad their life is or its lack of prospect for improvement, is unbelievably stupid and selfish.

It's Oregon, and the law is being
challanged again by the Bush administration.

Fuck Bush(tm).

I dont demand they stay alive, but at least have the decency not to screw someone else over in the process.

What might surprise you is that many suicides go out of their way to try to be tidy.

I had one guy who set up buckets for under his wrists to bleed into so he didn't fuck up his mom's carpet. I've also had a couple bathtub wrist slitters.

Sometimes shooters either wrap themselves in something to try to contain the blood to reduce cleanup, or go to an area that won't be as messy, like the basement or backyard. Cute Little Old Man who comes to outpatient and brings chocolate for all the girls (he's a Cute Little Old Flirt), burned down his trailer and went into an open field where he slit his throat and wrists. (the burning trailer attracted the attention of the police who found him in the field and got him helicoptered to a city hospital for treatment.)

You only hear about the ones who make a spectacular mess.

Considerate suicides sit in the bathtub with the shower curtain drawn before blowing their brains out.

We had someone who turned out to be a homeless guy somehow get onto the roof of my office building and jump off into the back alley. The roof was 12 stories high. The cops had to leave him there for a few hours until they finished their investigation. Meanwhile, word spread like wildfire in my building, and lots of people went to offices that overlooked the alley to gawk at the splatter. I made a point not to look at the mess, because I just don't need to have an image like that burned into my memory.

Many of the gawkers were messed up for the rest of the day. It really hurt office morale for a few days, and nobody even knew the guy.

I have personally witnessed two suicides (of terminally ill people) and been present at the time. They took the relatively quiet and clean route of drugs that they hoarded from their prescriptions. I was touched at the suffering they withstood prior to the event to save their meds and the stoicism with which they defied the pain and presented a happy face to the ones who would survive them.

In the one case where there was family, the wife threw a party even though she could not come downstairs to be there. People came up in ones and twos to talk to her and say their goodbyes. At the end, she brought in the few people she wanted to be with her, took her pills (her "control" as she put it) and went to sleep. About an hour later her life signs ceased and her husband kissed her and brought the news to the others. All wept briefly (this was not unexpected) and then toasted her. Her doctor was informed (I believe he knew but for ethical reasons did not attend) and came to sign the death certificate. All details were handled quietly and as she wished.

When it's my time to go, I want it to be like that. Surrounded by my friends, no umseemly grieving, no mess.

I have also been a "friend" to an AIDS patient who chose to kill himself by throwing himself off an overpass into traffic below. NOT a good thing. He didn't kill anyone else but tied up traffic for hours and probably gave the unfortunate who hit him nightmares for a LONG time. Maybe Wolf even saw this guy admitted. I hate it when people do this. Death with Dignity is more than a slogan to me. I cannot fathom forcing innocent people to witness/participate in your death and the resultant cleanup. It is very selfish IMO.

Brian

Suicide is an inherently selfish act.

You are right, of course, but sometimes the person's selfishness is quite understandable. I have complete sympathy for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness who has no quality left to their life and who quietly OD's on their pain meds. Makes sense to me and doesn't leave too much of a mess for anyone to clean up.

A friend of mine ("Joe") had a truely horrific experience with the deaths of his elderly father and step mother a couple of years back. Both of them had been experiencing steadily increasing health difficulties for quite some time and were in their early 80's. The step mother had reached the point where she was completely bed ridden and in constant pain. Joe's father had been diagnosed with terminal cancer, so he was little better off than his wife.

Apparently, the two of them made some sort of murder/suicide pact and Joe's father shot first the stepmother and then himself. Amazingly, no one in their upscale neighborhood heard the shots go off, and it was a week before Joe discovered their bodies (he lives in another town and when he couldn't reach them by phone, he drove down to check on them).

Apparently, the mess and the smell was terrible, Joe had to go through the process of an inquest because no suicide note was left behind and the local cops were extremely suspicious that Joe might have knocked 'em off to get his inheritance before the medical bills ate all the money up.

The forensic evidence made it pretty clear what had happened, but Joe was put through a great deal of needless stress at a time when he already had plenty to deal with.

I have always wondered if this wasn't some sort of strange "payback" to Joe by his Dad. I've known Joe since we were both about 20 or so, and back then Joe's Dad would always get the two of us to join him for his annual fall hunting trip. Joe's Dad who had worked for the Forest Service all his life considered Joe a sort of "wussy boy" because Joe was intent on an academic career in philosophy, and these hunting trips were his way of trying to make a "man" out of Joe.

I was always uncomfortable watching the interaction between the two men. Joe seemed to lose all self confidence around his Dad and his skin would even break out if he made contact with the blood of a deer or an elk that we had brought down.

I think in some very fucked up way, Joe's Dad was taking one final chance to show Joe how to be a "real Man."

What about people who commit suicide to get their family the insurance money?

Did Adam Smith not say people act selfishly? Therefore suicide is a symptom of free market economics?

I don't demand that anyone stay alive. Just that they don't traumatize the rest of humanity whilst going in thru the out door. And it certainly IS a selfish act. Try to understand beyond yourself.

But beyond yourself should not include people that force themselves into your life. ;)

Most insurance policies don't pay off on suicides.

Years passed I sold a guy I knew a legal hand gun. He gave it to his brother who was terminally ill & in hospital. he did the lights out thing. Boy was I glad we did the right paper work on gun.

This just after I said in the Hunter Thompson thread -
My bad.

Was the brother charged? Did a jury convict him of anything?

Not that I know of. But he was on the families shit list for a long time. Anything is possible in New Orleans.

cowwwwhhhheeeeaad
 

ok, cowhead, thats really not cool for you to just tell someone how to kill themselves 'efficiently.' i mean god damn, you're a gruesome ass! i mean honestly! how could u think up something like that? you say he's lame? what about you? you probably thought out your elaborate scheme up for yourself, and then i bet YOU chickened out.
:thumbsdn: :dead:

Well now, am I to assume from your name you just dropped by to flame cowhead and not offer anything constructive? That's not nice.
Is suicide a personal hot button? Somebody you know off themselves?
If so, rather than flaming cowhead for an obvious intentionally fatuous post, you could add some insight about those left in the wake of such a tragedy.
If not, are you just perturbed that someone, in this case cowhead, would think up a foolproof methodology? Or be so callous as to not care that your considering offing yourself?
Did you ever think the cowhead, like a lot of people are sick and tired of people "attempting" unsucessful suicides to get attention? Kind of like flamers. :eyebrow:

Nicely said, bruce.

I've seen the serious, the cry for helps, and the attention seekers. I've also seen the accidentally or drunkenly stupid.

If there's a variation, I've probably dealt with at least one. Jumpers, cutters, drunkards, auto-exhausters, air-shooters, overdoses, shotguns, pistols, rifles, folks who decide to try to find out if humans are combustable, layers-down on train tracks (the guy who totally fucked himself up by not doing that one quite right was a piece of work ... has one remaining arm and half his large and small intestines).

Where the heck was I going with this?? Oh, yeah. There's no one way to think about suicide, no one way to think about suicidal people. Or to respond to them.

The reality is if they are gonna do it, they'll do it. The danger of that, of course, is they might die trying.

Even if they don't really want to.

thanks Bruce.. hadn't been by here in a while. but it's kinda cool that someone wasted that much time to sign up and pick a name just to taunt me!

no, i have tried to snuff myself a couple of times which resulted in some really spectacular failures. to which left me with some sense of 'fate'.. as in I'm not supposed to die yet. (what I'm around for I have no Idea.. but it looks like there's something I'm supposed to do.. and for an agnostic that's a bit of a trick :))

and I still stick by my 'if you want to kill yourself go right ahead, just be as considerate about it as possible' mentality

yes! killing yourself is fucked up! but.. sometimes it seems like the only option, and in the case of the terminally ill.. I support it! why suffer more than you really have to? (yeah that's another thing where the thought process get's tricky.. how much is too much?) damnit...

oh yeah! and I have a gruesome sense of humour...