Why did you have kids?
 

Looking for honest answers here, hoping for more than 'it just happened', as I'm trying to work out whether we just spawn offspring in a slightly misguided bid to replace ourselves (the word 'reproduce' seems to confirm this) or whether it is an inescapable part of evolution that 'decisions' have nothing to do with.

Yes I know you wouldn't change anything for the world and little Billy/Milly is the best thing that's ever 'happened to you', but why did you decide to have children?

I always thought I would be a dad, so it was just a forgone conclusion. I think it's hardwired into me. There was no philosophical discussion about the pros/cons of bringing offspring into the world. The only question was "are we ready yet?" Making the decision to actually do it now was a little like building up my courage to jump into cold water from a cliff on a hot summer day. I was nervous, maybe even afraid, but thought I would probably like it once I made the plunge. And I did.

We were in our early 30s when we made the decision, so we had already done the young married couple thing for several years. Had been travelling a lot. Had bought a house. Saved some money. We had seen the world, and now we were ready to settle down and be a family.

Make no mistake about it. Kids absolutely change everything. Your old life is over once the kids arrive. Some parts of that really suck. You can't just do the things you want to when you want to. You always have to be thinking about the kids. This is the part where the parent says "But it's worth it, because my kids are such a joy." I was always a little doubtful before I had kids that this was true. I figured that the parents were just trying to delude themselves. But it's true for me. The kids are great, and I'm glad that my old life is gone and I'm living this one. It's a good life, even if I was up for an hour last night at 2AM because my toddler can't pull the blankets back on him in the middle of the night and fights me when I try to do it for him. :)

even if I was up for an hour last night at 2AM because my toddler can't pull the blankets back on him in the middle of the night and fights me when I try to do it for him.

Oh thank god my kid's not the only one. He hasn't slept through the night more than a day at a time in almost a year, starting at around the age of two, because he apparently decided then that having his blankets come off was a reason for terror, and can't yet get them back on himself.


But to answer your question, Catwoman... the first two (step)kids were part of the package in marrying my husband, and I decided I wanted the package. :) The additional kids (which so far do not exist but we're working on it ;))... well, like glatt, I always knew I wanted children, from a very young age. The ability to teach a child everything you know, and the reward of seeing a happy child, I think are the two things that appeal to me most about it.

Some people (especially women) get off on having something that "needs" them, and they are usually disappointed when their child eventually becomes their own person. For me, it's the whole timeline that appeals to me--I like the idea of having Christmas when I'm 70 and having all my children bring their children to the house, just as much as I like the idea of teaching a baby to walk and speak.

What's the difference?

I can't answer the question, except to say there are some days that are great, and some days when I'm sighing longingly over the ads for military boarding schools.

If we are doing it to replace ourselves it is conscious and a means of extending our identity. If it is evolutionary it is instinctual and much more deeply embedded than conscious thought.

Clodfobble you are an ideal subject for this question! (Excuse the clinicism). You are on the path to having children of your own, yet you don't really know why.

Why do you want to teach someone? What will you get from it? The happy child won't always be happy, in fact most of the time they will be unhappy, like nearly everyone else on the planet. Do you want this?

Personally, I don't think I know anything about life. So an attempt to teach a child 'everything I know' would probably result in yet another confused and malconditioned person wandering aimlessly around the planet. Why would I want to do that?

The kids coming round for xmas when you're 70 thing? I kind of feel like that too. But to breed out of loneliness can only result in despair when your child fails to fulfil your dream - which they will - because their lives are their own, not yours.

we never planned on having kids. we were perfectly content DINKs (dual income no kids). not that we didn't like kids, but we had no intention of having our own. then one summer we cleaned up our act. we weren't strung out freaks or anything but we enjoyed ourselves a little more than necessary. We quit drinking and consumed no other party favors, and BAM! next thing you know, my wife has the 6 week flu. we sooo didn't believe it that we had a number of those home pregnancy tests before going to the Dr.

having that little booger is the most stressful, and most rewarding part of my life. i can't imagine what life would be like without him now.

I think the live of self-giving is the most abundant life a person can have, and the relationship of a parent to a child, when it is healthy and balanced, is a beautiful expression of self-giving.

I know that sounds like mumbo-jumbo new age crapandahalf, but it really is true.

What on earth is 'self-giving'?

Why do you want to teach someone? What will you get from it? The happy child won't always be happy, in fact most of the time they will be unhappy, like nearly everyone else on the planet. Do you want this?

I get a sense of accomplishment, the same that a teacher gets from seeing their student understand something for the first time. And if I do my job right, the happy child will usually be happy. I can't really speak for "nearly everyone else on the planet," but I am not unhappy most of the time. If my child had the same temperament and happiness levels that I've had, I would consider my parenting a success.

This ties in a lot I think with your perspectives in the "Where do you draw the line?" thread. The fact that a child will sometimes be unhappy is not a reason to give up and never have them, just like the fact that a relationship will sometimes be unhappy is not a reason to leave in search of something immediately better--because being unhappy is a part of life sometimes, but when I get past it I have more self-worth than before, because I take pride in successfully overcoming odds.

And that's really what it boils down to, probably, is pride. More directly, self-esteem. You said:

Personally, I don't think I know anything about life. So an attempt to teach a child 'everything I know' would probably result in yet another confused and malconditioned person wandering aimlessly around the planet. Why would I want to do that?

I personally think I know a reasonable amount about life, and I feel I could communicate those things effectively to a child. I think your fear of parenting comes from a lack of self-esteem, and perhaps a general pessimism.

Look at your life, and find anything in which you take pride. What is it that causes you to feel pride over your accomplishment? Those things are directly applicable to the accomplishment of raising a child.

yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to throw around a bunch of technical language.

Self-giving is the idea of giving. um .... yourself.

From the time I was 5 I new I wanted to have kids, 2. One girl and one boy. And believe it or not the day our daughter was born I knew our second was going to be a boy. :)

I will tell you that now as I am in my early 40s I look at our kids and wonder where the hell the time went (10, 8) and how the HELL did I get to be 40? :eek:

I can honestly say I did not have any forethought in the kid department. I just decided one day it was time to have a kid. We had been married for a couple of years is all. I was 28 and I think that was the key. I felt like I HAD to get started. If anyone would have told me what my life was going to be like, I would have waited longer, slept more, traveled more, had more sex with my husband.
When I had my first child, I came home from the hospital totally and completely clueless. I hadn't any idea what to do. I read many books during my pregnancy, learning about the different stages of development. I hadn't however, read anything about what it was like to actually bring a baby home. I had terrible post partum depression too..which I wasn't aware of. I just thought I was hopelessly lost in a situation I could not get out of. We somehow managed through it all. She is 6 years old now. Smart and funny. A person. She has two younger sisters too. All I can say is it is rewarding but, I still do envy those without the constraints of parenthood. I fantasize about what it would be like to just take care of me. I, like the others who have posted here, would not trade it. Being a mom is a gift. You don't know the depth of love that can pass between two people until you become a parent. It isn't the same as two adults loving and depending on each other. Those little people see you as you really are day to day and love you all the more for it. It is hard as hell and I am sure it will just get harder when they all get into their teen years. When I decided to be a parent I didn't know why but I do now.

One thing that is really amazing about deciding to become a parent is the optimism behind that choice. You have no idea what you are going to get, but you hope for the best and go for it. When you get married, you try the person out first. Get to know them. You know much more what you are getting yourself into. With kids, you don't know what kind of kid you will have. Most are healthy. Many are not. Most are happy. Many are not. It's true, though, that parents love their kids regardless of what kind they get, and that's amazing.

For Mrs. Dar and I, it was something we decided we really wanted to do together. Sort of a very long joint creative arts project. It was an outgrowth of how we felt about each other.

Actually it was kind of a surprise as both of us were ambivalent about having kids when we first got married.

This made me PISS myself. For those who don't know, in England, pissing yourself means uncontrollable stomach vibrations, often called laughing, at something so completely ironic and ridiculous it defies comment. Phew, dear oh dear. :haha:

Clodfobble, I can assure you, if I know nothing about life, you certainly don't. You would have a child for your own sense of accomplishment. For company when you're 70. And you have never questioned the fact that you've always wanted children. Not only that, you think, despite having read my first entry in the relationships thread, you still think my comments result from pessimism! Amazing. No, I'm not pessimistic. Most of my days are spent laughing, sometimes at absurdity, sometimes because I'm in the best relationship I've ever had and sometimes because I'm content with life, whatever happens. Yes, whatever happens.

And what a huge assumption that 'I feel I could communicate those things effectively to a child'. 1) how do you know (you don't, so you're willing to risk it), 2) you cannot make someone understand something if they're incapable of understanding it, no matter how clear or patient you are, and 3) that's assuming you've got it right! Maybe you have, Clod, but you don't KNOW that, yet you're willing to go for it all the same.

Now, to hear about all these people pinging out babies with no real understanding of why is slightly concerning. Of course, I'm not actually concerned, I couldn't care less, because I know there's nothing I can do about it. No one will listen, if they do they almost certainly won't understand, and if they do... the chances of them applying it are... zero.

What on earth are you talking about. Giving yourself. How can you give yourself. You are yourself. Do you mean 'doing things for other people'. Or 'being generous'. Bloody hippies.

Pride? What has pride got to do with anything? Oh yes, pride in yourself, as a woman I should a) have a self-esteem problem I need to overcome and b) overcome it by having a child.

There are so many assumptions shooting around in this thread. I should have known that. My problem. When I've stopped laughing/blinking/sighing I will come back and try to explain more explicitly.

Well shit... I had a long, thoughtful response written out, but I took too long to write it and I got logged out and lost all of it. Grumble grumble... I'll try and reconstruct it...


No, you misunderstood. People with self-esteem problems should not have children. You asked why people want to have children, and I'm saying that people who already have pride in themselves often desire to have children, not the other way around.

If you're content with your life, then you at least feel most other people are not content with theirs. I think that's cynical, if not pessimistic.

And if you are truly content with your life, then I think you do know something about life. Wouldn't you say that reaching a point where you can be content "whatever happens" is a worthy goal, and not one that everyone has attained? Then you certainly know more about life than some people. And if someone asked you, would you try to persuade them that such contentedness is a good way to look at life, and that laughing, having good relationships and being content whatever happens is a good philosophy to have in life? Then you have the innate desire to teach that person about what you know. The fact that you enjoy discussing things with people is proof that you both desire to learn from and teach other people--and learning is another very enjoyable part of being a parent.

You seem to have taken offense at my post, and I'm sorry. You asked why people would want to have children, and I tried to explain the way I feel about it, and draw parallels so that even if you didn't feel the same way about children, you might feel the same way about other things in your life and therefore understand where people who want children are coming from. I'm not trying to convince you to have children or tell you that you must have problems if you don't want them. I'm just trying to explain why people want them. You're right, I don't know that I'll be a good parent--all I can do is guess, and hope, and try my best. I don't know that I'll be a good wife, or a good friend, or a good anything... but I still try to be all of those things, because that's what humans do, we continually try.

Cat - asking for opinions and then abusing people over the answers is not polite nor will it help you learn anything.

Did your original post really mean to say "I think people are stupid for having children and I would like to elaborate using you all as examples"? If so, then you should have been more clear.

Are you considering children? If not, what made you post this particular question?

I had actually prepared a long response to catwoman yesterday but, for some reason, couldn't bring myself to hit the submit button and deleted it. Since my response was very similar to clodfobble's, I guess I just dodged a barb or two.

I don't really understand the motive behind the several related questions that catwoman has been posting recently in this and other threads. I suppose that is why I bagged my answer. That, and I thought I caught a faint whiff of condescension in the question that kicked off this thread.

Ah, yes I think I did misunderstand. Sorry about that. I would just add that the 'pride' one feels may be misguided and if you are truly content or 'proud', you don't need the reinforcement of friends or children - as we tend to reproduce either to improve our lives (low self-esteem) or recreate them (pride).

I am alive, healthy and have the ability to see reality. What more could I want? I don't think this makes me special, just a little bit more aware.

I would not try to persuade them, because people only learn/change when they want to. Of course I would answer any questions though.

That is possibly true. Although I think the real reason I participate in discussions is the contact, recognition and pushing of boundaries, I rarely learn from it (although I am of course open to learning).

I never take offense. To do so would be reacting emotionally which wouldn't get us anywhere. Feel free to insult and curse me all you like, if you think the point warrants it.

I was fully expecting an irrational, retaliatory response, but you have replied calmly and logically, which shows a greater level of awareness than most. Maybe you would be a good parent.

All I want is for people to acknowledge they might not be. Of course everyone likes to think they'd be (or are) a good parent. I just think if the people that shouldn't be having children didn't, there'd be a lot less problems in this world.

I'm not polite, because politeness is false. If someone is right, I will acknowledge it. If they've quite clearly got their head in a muddle, I will say so. Wouldn't you rather someone respected you enough to bother correcting you when you're wrong and listening when you're right, rather than appeasing you with politeness?

I do try to provoke people, because usually this is when you get a true response. Of course, there's the odd softy who takes it the wrong way, but then I won't learn anything from them anyway. As Clod has demonstrated, it is quite possible to respond objectively to my "abuse" if there is a genuine point to be made.

See last post, last paragraph, for my reason for posting.

So what you're saying is, if I can deal with you then I can deal with a two-year-old? ;)

If you can deal with a two year old, dealing with me is like adding 2+2. Piece of piss. :)

Cat - what i'm getting out of all your posts when taken as a whole is either pretty confusing or very telling. i'm not sure which.

On religion you tell us that you have it all figured out. There is no God, it is a creation of a fearful, inquisitive mind. A step on the path to enlightenment before the revelation that there is no God, but only us. those that have a faith in God aren't educated or enlightened enough to know they are all they need and stop the search for something to fill a gap in their lives.

On relationships you tell us you see no point in having a commitment because it might not work out for the long haul. You like the warm and fuzzy, but think the commitment beyond that is foolishness.

On children you don't see the point in having children except to fill a void in our lives, or lift up a sagging self esteem. Those who see other value in being parents are misguided.

These last two issues were questions that you raised in what I thought was an inquisitive manner, but then you already seem to have all the answers worked out. So, really, why ask the questions if you already know all of the answers that will follow but have refuted them in your own mind?

I'm not trying to pick on you or ridicule you in anyway, I'm really just confused. I don't know you in real life, so I don't know much about you. We can only assume that we are IRL as we are in the cellar, as much as possible.

If this holds true for you then, it would seem that you are either the most overconfident, all knowledgeable person I've ever met or you are someone who is searching for something but refuse to admit it, because you don't know what in the world you are searching for.

Your posts in the three topics at hand lend themselves to the second choice. If you truly believed that there is nothing but ourselves in life then why argue with such conviction against those that believe otherwise. If you are right, no one has lost anything. The questions about relationships were asked because you are either searching for something or because you just wanted to tell us why we were wrong.

Either way, it seems to me that you may be asking these questions of yourself, but don't want to admit you aren't sure of the answers. Maybe you don't even like that you have the questions to begin with, since you don't believe in a void that needs to be filled. somehow, I think all of these threads are linked for you.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. I don't know, Freud I am not. I never liked the Coke. damn ice cubes always got stuck in my nose.

It's obvious that some people should not have had kids. I think it's harder to tell whether people should have kids. Some of the darndest people turn out to have happy, healthy kids. In general, I think people that really want to have kids will give it their best and things will come out ok.

On the other hand, if you are hoping that some parent somewhere will smack themselves on the head and say, "Damn, Catwoman just made me realize, I should never have had children." I think you will be disappointed.

Catwoman, are you knocked up* and trying to decide what to do?

* In American English, this does not have anything to do with phone calls.

23 shots. 22 misses and one bullseye.

* I believe they call it "preggers" in jolly old England

If this is the case...let me be the first to suggest adoption..........

I'm pretty sure you can correct someone and be polite at the same time.

I had a kid because I wanted someone else to do the dishes and mow the lawn.

Edit: Stupid "be"...

When my first kid was around two years old or so, a friend was over to visit one day. I asked my daughter to go get me a bottle of beer out of the refrigerator. I had never done that before, but it worked beautifully. My friend was impressed or maybe shocked, and my kid was happy to please me. And I got a beer.

It is sad (but understandable) that people think I would only post out of some personal opinion or situation (ie. I'm depressed, I'm pregnant, I'm unsure of myself...) The truth is a) I'm not and b) if I was, it wouldn't affect the content of my posts one bit (unless I had a specific question, like 'who can recommend a decent shrink').

So, I hope now I've said that (and why wouldn't you believe me) you can take my words on face value for what they are, and not be influenced by the fact it is me who is saying them.

I'd imagine both.

Precisely. You could also interchange the word 'god' in that sentence for 'romantic love', 'identity', 'designer clothes', 'television'. I do keep repeating this, but all we need, and all we ever have done, is food, water and warmth - basic pre-requisites for heath and thus survival. Anything else, yes anything else, is superfluous. It does not take a genius to work that one out.

This great good god you believe in. I'm not trying to disprove it, it is not something that can be proven or disproven. The truth, the real truth right here today is that god exists only in your mind. Do you understand this? Whether or not at some point in the distant future in some faraway place you meet your maker and go 'see, I told you so', all that matters is right now. And right now god is but a thought.

Thoughts confuse things. If I think too much about something, it gets distorted. That's because as soon as the thing you're thinking about passes (ie. an argument with your spouse), there is nothing left to think about. So we make things up. 'Ooh I'm still really mad with him I just don't know why.'

We make things up because it is very hard to be at peace. This is because the self likes conflict, because conflict reinforces your identity (any one who has studied drama will know this is a very simple and effective tool). It might make things clearer if you read my 'What if you didn't have a name' thread.

Yes, there is no point in promising a commitment. You might well stay together forever, my only point is that you cannot possibly know this, so why make promises you don't know that you can keep?

Er, nope. Some people have children to fill a void. Some people do it for self-worth. The point of having children is to perpetuate the species. I think our inbuilt desire for children is made personal to encourage us to have them. Fuck me, having a kid isn't a bed of roses. Sleepless nights are a perk compared to giving up your own life let alone childbirth. So, our highly evolved, very intelligent minds have created things like 'love' and relationships to distract us from the less than romantic reality of having a child. Once you've had one, it is probably impossible to truly realise this, as it would negate a large part of your emotional experience.

Double checking. Testing myself.

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that.

I'm not arguing. I think it might help if you (plural) knew a bit more of the truth. You can lapse into the old 'but what makes you so sure you're right' thing but just think about what I've said, forget that it's me who said it, and you'll soon work out if it's right or not.

Yes, I'm always questioning myself. No, I'm never completely sure. I'd be stupid to think I've already got it, already answered all the questions, because this place is constantly changing and there are always new things to address. The belief that there is some spiritual end point is the myth that keeps us going. The truth, the only truth I can be sure of, is what is happening right now.

And yes, the threads are linked just as everything else you experience in your life. I would also mention that when I post, I just write what comes out, so if there is any contradiction with earlier posts that's because I may have changed - all I know to be true is what I know now. If you're not sure, ask a question!

This whole having or not having kids / relationships thing is pretty interesting. My decision to have kids was powered by biology but steered by reason. I've only met one woman with whom I want to have kids. She fills needs for me. Her warmth and character improve my decidedly moody nature every day. That said marriage is a risk, some folks are unwilling to change themselves in ways that strengthen bonds or put another way people get selfish and change themselves in ways that are destructive of the bonds. Some times people bullshit you with "we grew apart." That growing separate was based on small and big decisions over time. It may seem a natural growth looking back on it but decisions were made. gotta go to work later g

You know, I had this big old long thing ready to post and I suddenly realized that none of it mattered.

If you're so in the now, why does it matter why people decided something before? Shouldn't the relevant question be "what kind of parent are you now?"

Personally, I feel sorry for you and hope one day you learn to live beyond yourself and survival.

Ok Onyx - what else is there? Please tell me, I'd hate it if I was missing something.

You're not "missing" anything if you don't want kids. Some people are built for it, and some aren't (here's the part where I make sure no one gets oversensitive by pointing out that the statement was not implying anything about anyone). Some people just want children, and the reasons are as numerous as there are parents.

I've written replies to this thread trying to explain my drive to be a father several times, and was never happy enough with it to post. I'll try again.

I grew up with a father that wasn't around much. I would see him here and there, and he would throw some money my way and return to the other side of the country. His absence as a father probably taught me more about how to be one than his presence would have. So from early high school age on, I wanted to one day be a dad because I wanted to show him what a good father would be like.

Yeah, my original motivation was to "stick it to the old man".

Years went by and I learned to deal with the anger towards my father. But the drive didn't subside. I still knew I could be a great dad. I knew I could be everything my children needed me to be. I knew that if there was one thing in this world I would be good at, it was fatherhood.

There's more to say, but I'm tired of revisiting this thread and trying to put it into words. Basically, my reasons are as follows, in order:

1. Because I wanted to be a dad.
2. Because I loved my wife and knew that she would find happiness in having a child.

I think onyx was talking about me saying 'all there is is now' etc etc. I was just wondering if she could think of anything else (I'd be genuinely amazed if she can).

So it was your need to be good at something coupled with your desire to correct your father's past mistakes?

Hmm. This happens quite often, and in your case seems to be a true and caring act. A lot of men say it was 'to shut her up' or words to that effect.

Uh, yeah. In large part at least. I'm not going to deny that a great deal of my motivation was selfishness. In fact, I really can't come up with a genuinely unselfish reason, though what I pointed out in number 2 above could arguably be considered unselfish. I guess it really can be this simple sometimes:

Why did I have a kid? Because I wanted one.

Because people reading this thread, that are just starting out, may be wondering if they are aware of all the pros and cons before making that choice. There may be perfectly valid reasons for procreating that the reader hadn't thought of, like to take the place of Social Security in a post Bush world. :lol:

Or paying for ss in a Demoworld? :eek:

I might as well jump in. I had kids because my wife wanted to have kids and there was no way I was going to talk her out of it. I'm not sure I would have ever "been ready" but many guys never reach the "ready" stage.

Now that we have them, I couldn't imagine life without them but as far as the "why" goes, the true answer is because it wasn't up to me.

Yes, it may well be as simple as that. I'm just trying to look a little deeper ie what constitutes our 'I wants' - I think you've said it anyway, you wanted to have a child to make you feel better (re your father/self esteem). By the way perth I'm not criticizing, just fascinated, and thank you for being honest.

Women want children. Men want to sleep with women. Thus the population continues. Perhaps the institution of Relationship has a glitch?

I know you're happy now Beestie, and as you say couldn't imagine life without them, but if you had your time again, would you honestly have children? What else would you do? Do you have any unfulfilled wants?

Yes, I would still have them (if I had it to do all over again) - just not any more of them http://www.cellar.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

I got married at 36 so I pretty much got everything out of my system beforehand so there really isn't any great adventure that I felt like I gave up to get married. Unfulfilled wants? Sure there are but I assume you meant options that are now foreclosed since I'm married with kids. Not really. I feel a little cramped sometimes - nothing I haven't told my wife - but, overall, I'm pretty satisfied with the way things turned out.

One thing I still want to do, though is spend about a month or two on the west coast and work my way up from San Diego to Vancouver. I'd prefer to do it on a Harley but may have to settle for an SUV with child seats.

Getting married later has its advantages. I'm not having a mid-life crisis because I didn't mortgage my youth for my wife and kids. Of course, when my friends who got married early are empty nesters at 45 years old, I may feel a little bogged down by comparison.

Fair dinkum. So the 'feeling a little cramped' is not that important. Doesn't matter if you don't feel thrilled and free every morning, because otherwise things are ok? You can still live an edited version of your dream so there's no problem? I think your idea of the Harley is based on freedom and experimentation, something which marriage and children hasn't destroyed but you were perhaps afraid of, no reluctant to pursue before you got married etc? I'm not sure what I'm getting at here. Just that I know even at 22 there are still things holding me back - be it self-confidence, money, societal perceptions etc. What stops you from being completely happy?

:D

I wouldn't trade my boy for the world, but I do have to honestly admit that he changed things in ways I never could have forseen. Having Jamey closed more doors than it really opened, and it made what little time I have to myself all that much more important. But I do believe he's done as much good for me as I have for him. Having a child is what finally made me realise it was time to grow up.

I have no regrets having a kid, but I think every parent has their "what if?" moments. Knowing what I know now, I would do it again.

For me, there's no such thing as being completely happy. I need a carrot at the end of the stick to keep myself motivated and challenged. As a guy, I need for something to be broken (or not right) so I can have something to focus on fixing (or making right). I will never be 100% happy but don't take that to mean that I'm not happy with my life - it has never been better than it is right now.

Its tempting to take the one small sacrifice I am making as a married father and suggest that I'd be happier if I didn't have a wife and kids but that completely overlooks the missed opportunities and missed rewards of having a family. I've been on both sides of the fence in my 20s and 30s so when I say that "I wouldn't trade my situation now for what I had before having a family" that's an informed comparison.

There will always be things I want but can't have. If I suddenly had them tomorrow, I'd want something else in its place. I think its unrealistic to imagine a state of being that is characterized by "not wanting" or "having everything that one wants." Humans are limited to aspiring to such a state.

The only real question, therefore, is "am I more fulfilled with a family than without" and the answer is an unqualified "with."

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps what most people consider 'unhappy' is actually the 'happiness' we attain to, we're just unable to recognise it at the time. 'I'm not happy because my boyfriend left me' - means 'I'm happy because I have something to fix'. Maybe this is why relationships inevitably go downhill - you reach peak 'happiness', realise this isn't actually happiness, and find something to 'fix'.

There is nothing inevitable about relationships going downhill. Some relationships actually go uphill never to retreat. Interesting presumption, though. Very telling.

The relationship that goes uphill is the one you keep forever, so it's the last relationship you have.

Every relationship prior to that goes downhill, or the uphill one never would have started in the first place.

I so want to believe you. But everwhere I see the opposite. I do not know of a single relationship that has gone 'uphill'. They all deteriorate (and this is not just from personal experience). They deteriorate because the second you commit you either feel trapped or consumed - ie you want to leave and be free or you become obsessed or 'part' of the other person so much that it consumes your identity and you lose yourself (hence the immense heartache when it ends - you literally don't know who you are anymore).

I'm not trying to be negative nor am I deeply scarred and reacting to past experience (I don't think). Just what I see.

I'd leave the inevitable part out, but this is an interesting thought. I've noticed some couples who are completely wrong for each other and seem to need each other to fight with. They consider that to be the spark in their relationship. I couldn't live like that so that type of relationship would go downhill for me.

For someone your age it might look inevitable because you're just on the threshold of the time when folks tend to make permanent comitments, so there is a great deal of turnover. We have a lot of cultural forces working on us as well. We don't seem to value self-sacrifice any longer even though in the proper context and spirit it is probably more satisfying than living for ourselves. This is where some folks lose their way. They don't see the beauty in these voluntary commitments. We attack the idea of permanent relationships and then our political system subsidizes the results. It is good that we have choice and the marriages that survive in these circumstances are better for it, but let's not throw away the idea of a permanent relationship just because others are not successful.

These are half-formed thoughts but I have to get to work.

I see both. I think that may be the difference in out perspectives. My parents have the best marriage I have ever seen. They are in their 60's, so I guess it's possible that theirs may go downhill at this point, but it's highly unlikely. I'm in an uphill relationship with my wife. We've only been married 12 years, so time will tell, but I can't imagine this relationship falling apart. My previous relationships all went downhill, but that's because I got involved with the wrong person each time, and I wasn't ready myself either.

I've seen plenty of relationships fall apart. About half of all US marriages end in divorce, so that side certainly exists. Maybe I'm just lucky.