Chemical Dependency/Illness or weakness
 

Active alcoholics and drug dependent people, as well those who are in a recovering mode. M.D.'s, therapist, Anyone who would like to talk about their pain or happiness beliefs, etc....... This seems to be a problem that effects almost all people in one way or another. There are some who say 1 in 10 are chemically dependent, and the families of each of these are usually highly effected. I just figured there were at least a hundred people who are members of the cellar and at least 10 of them would have some imput......
Drug dependency includung alcohol which is a psychoactive drug is a serious health issue in this country......

Well, yeah.

Of course it's a serious issue. There are effects of substance use that reach beyond the individual who is using. Impact is not just on family and friends, but often complete strangers. Substance use breeds crime, often violent crime. Muggings, carjackings, assaults, DUIs, all kindsa stuff.

I don't hold with the disease model of alcoholism/drug use. I see a lot of alcoholics. Identifying it as a disease over which the individual has no control makes it easier to use ... abdicating personal responsibility never helped anybody, IMNSHO.

For many years, when I had an actual desk, rather than sitting where ever there's a seat available, I had a photocopied paragraph pinned to my bulletin board. If you care to find the original to get the quote exactly right, it was from the Endnotes of Philip K. Dick's "Through a Scanner Darkly."

As best as I can remember, it goes:

I see a lot of drug addicted people. I see a lot of alcoholics. Every single day. Often the same individual over and over again. I remember when I first started seeing them, and they looked kinda normal, and I see them now, totally used up.

I've seen some successes. I've seen the successes fail, and strive to succeed again, or more often, to spiral lower and lower, giving their lives to their drug of choice.

Somewhere online there are photo series of the same person over a period of months and years ... mugshots, taken by a Sheriff's Department somewhere, that illustrate the ravages of drugs over time. Sometimes over a short time (just a couple of months).

I strongly suggest searching these pictures out. They tell the story far better than the many anecdotes that I can relate.

I see your point. However, what about the genetic factor. "The possibility of a genetic predisposition to developing alcohol abuse problems have been widely researched. -Cotton1979-in a review of 39 studies of families of 6251 alcoholics and 4083 nonalcoholics who had been followed over 40 years- reported that almost one third of alcoholics had at least one parent with an alcohol problem. More recently, a study of children of alcoholics by Cloniger et al(1986) reported strong evidece for the inheritance of alcoholism. They found that, for males, having one alcoholic parent increased thr rate from 11.4 percent to 29.5 percent , and having havin two alcoholic parents increased the rate to 41.2 percent." -Abnormal Psychology and modern life
Just another view. While working as a therapist, I talked to many alcoholics and addicts. I saw many die due to what I consider a disease. They discussed the craving and withdrawal symptoms they experienced. You dont see this in social drinkers/users.

First, as we all learned in the first month of statistics class ... correllation does not imply causality. Is it genetics, or is it learned behavior? Or is it a matter of the process of addiction itself?

Craving and physical withdrawal symptoms are not seen in social users because they don't use to the point where they've fucked up their bodies enough to require the substance. Or have they? Plenty of casual drinkers have hangovers ... it's not that far of a step to the withdrawal symptoms, shakes, seizures and DTs of the serious alcoholic deprived of his booze. Ditto for herion, for example. It doesn't take that long to develop a tolerance requiring more and more of the substance. The more you use, the harder the withdrawal. That the withdrawal symptoms are insignificant when one starts using doesn't make them any less real.

But none of that makes it a disease. It's consequences of one's choice.

[quote=wolf]First, as we all learned in the first month of statistics class ... correllation does not imply causality. Is it genetics, or is it learned behavior? Or is it a matter of the process of addiction itself?

Craving and physical withdrawal symptoms are not seen in social users because they don't use to the point where they've fucked up their bodies enough to require the substance. Or have they? Plenty of casual drinkers have hangovers ... it's not that far of a step to the withdrawal symptoms, shakes, seizures and DTs of the serious alcoholic deprived of his booze. Ditto for herion, for example. It doesn't take that long to develop a tolerance requiring more and more of the substance. The more you use, the harder the withdrawal. That the withdrawal symptoms are insignificant when one starts using doesn't make them any less real.

But none of that makes it a disease. It's consequences of one's choice.[/QUOTE

I beg to disagree. First of all, I think when talking about psychoactive drugs, it does to some degree show some scientific fact of a genetic causation.
Secondly, its not so much the body as the neurotransmitters in the brain such as dopamine which are depleted when obsessively using alcohol or drugs that causes the craving and withdrawal symptoms. There is a difference between a cancer patient on morphine for six months daily running out and not being able to get any for three days due to an ice storm. However someone addicted to lets say addictive pain killers, benzodiazapines, alcohol, stimulants, etc.... During that same ice storm once the craving or withrwal becomes severe they will walk through ice five miles for a few pills or a bottle of whisky. The cancer paitent unable; would not do that if they were able. Many scientist have found genes and abnormalities of alcoholics and drug abusers in their brains with pet scans and other means. I do agree that sociological factors can definetly be a factor in addiction, but I am convinced that genetics plays a major factor. Look at someone addicted to cigarettes. If you will notice the ones able to quit and stay quit dont have some other addiction such as alcohol. There is a book dealing with alcoholism that talks about the three types of drinkers. Social drinkers(occasional hangovers), heavy drinkers may drin some everday(hangovers occasionally lays out of work after to much at the lake fishing sunday), and the the alcoholic that causes harm to himself, his close ones, and society a as a whole............
If it is a problem of ones decision making, why do so many die everday. Why are our prisons filled to their capacity. Why don't they "Just say know."

Even if you want to claim that there is a genetic predisposition for becoming addicted stronger and faster to substances than other people, there is no evidence of a genetic predisposition to look at a substance for the first time and crave to take it. The first time is always a choice.

I don't hold with the disease model of it, either. People who do drugs and drink alcoholically should be sterilized and then shot. Who do they think they are? Wasting everybody's time and patience, begging for forgiveness and, most notably, loathing themselves right into early graves and suicidal behaviors. Who needs it! :rolleyes:

That said--HOW does one KNOW one is an alcoholic until the first drink is down the gullet? And most alcoholics don't suffer consequences right away--mostly, it's a good, positive, self-reinforcing experiment. In this day and age, in this country, it would be the minority who was not exposed to a cocktail, beer or whatever. The drugs and alcohol are GOOD until they are BAD. By that time, chemical messengers and even brain functions are warped. Addiction is understood by those who have it and will never be by those who don't. It looks like insanity from a non-addicts viewpoint. I just deleted a bunch of stuff I wrote about similar diseases. It doesn't matter. You either understand or you don't.

I think Terry McGovern, daughter of Democractic Presidential Nominee and Senator George McGovern, said it best. Terry was brought into the ED of her local hospital for alcohol poisoining for the umpteenth time and an orderly asked her why she did it--kept on drinking in the face of irrefutable proof that she needed to quit to save her own life, and Terry said, "I don't know."

Alcohol use is a net positive to most people. Moderate drinkers live years longer than teetotalers. As a "social lubricant" it is unmatched, to the point where you would be hard-pressed to find a party where alcohol is not offered. Most people reading this are the result of alcohol in some way.

Drug use, including alcohol, is found in every culture. Beer and wine-making is first observed 4000 B.C. Seeking different states of mind is a deep part of human curiosity, first witnessed in children spinning themselves into a state of dizziness. Such activities are so deeply a part of childhood that they are practically ritualized. In other Cellar threads you will find people seeking these different states of mind via religious inspiration, and calling these states of mind the most important finding of their life.

I have absolutely no doubt that there is a biological basis for alcoholism. I think this should be studied and understood. I think understanding the biological basis will help those who make choices. I think calling it "disease" is a step towards acknowledging the biology of the problem but changes the nature of the debate in an unfortunate way. I think alcoholics have little choice by the time their problem is apparent and that addressing the problem through biology is probably a better and easier route.

My ex's oldest sister is a deeply troubled human being. At one point in her life, she was so alcoholic that she could not be left unsupervised for five minutes with any money or she would seek out the nearest store and get as drunk as possible. Earlier in her life she was a coke addict, including during one of her pregnancies. Her two children are also deeply fucked up, the older failing out of Penn State while leaning into schizophrenia, the younger a complete and total slut banging guys in their 30s when she was 16.

Her condition is so continuous through her life, so deep running thorugh several rehabs, that it's hard to imagine her ever redeeming herself in any way. At age 46 she has lost almost all her teeth due to drinking, looks terrible and will probably die in 5-10 years without having produced anything useful whatsoever.

It's really hard to imagine that she doesn't have some underlying biological problem. I know for certain that I will never be like her, and I don't think it's just a matter of a bad choice.

All that said, I would like to have helped her if I could have. And all the people with her condition.

I did not say there was a "genetic predisiposition to look at a aubstance for the first time and crave to take it" I stated that there is a predisposition to addiciton to alcohol from children who had one or both parents who were alcoholic. I think i also backed this up with refrences. There are a great deal of Adult children of alcoholics who never take a drink because of what they have experienced because of their parents abuse. You will find a lot of these people at Al-Anon meetings trying to understand why they have the feelings they have. My point being, that they have many of the same personality traits of their parent/parents. On the other hand, there are children that grow up trying another psychoactive drug instead of alcohol because they hate alcohol. However they usually become addicted to whatever drug they like the best when used obsessively. I'm not saying every person that has a parent who is or was addicted will become an alcoholic/addict. Thats a question science is looking very carefully at. Why can their be four siblings in a family of an alcoholic and only two of them become addicted to some form of addictive substance. On second thought, even those that do not become addicted still have a great deal of difficulty dealing with lifes issues. There addiction or obsession if you like may be shown through work, gambling, eating, etc........... and then there are some who appear for some reason to be fairly normal people.... there are alot of questions concerning addiction. I agree,if your a child of an alcoholic, and you never take a psychoactive chemical ,how could you become addicted. However, it's been often said, that when someone predisisposed to addiction takes that first drink or drug the terrible cycle begins.

I don't know if this is what you were talking about Wolf , but you can defanently see her decline ,
let it load and watch her down fall , SAD :(

I guess caffeine doesn't count. :eyebrow:

I don't suppose that is meant to illustrate the importance of a good hairstylist...poor girl. She looks as if someone, a looooong time ago, cared for her. Does anyone really think this girl wanted this for herself???? In the first few mugshots she looks as though this were a 'lark'--isn't she having FUN?! You can see the pics where the disease (for those of you who think it is one) takes complete hold of her. I've seen similar pics of schizophrenics--in one they are obviously healthy, and in the other you can SEE what schizophrenia--despite any blood test, MRI or other "diagnostic" test might or might not indicate--has done to them.

Wolf, you can't believe that you know more than the AMA. How can you not see this desperation?????? You!

There is no definitive test for schizophrenia. The fact of the disease is proof enough. THERE IS NO TEST FOR MOST PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS! Why do we demand addicts prove more than schizo's or bipolars???? If you ask me, bipolars and BPD wreck as much, if not more, havoc.

[quote=Brown Thrasher]. There are some who say 1 in 10 are chemically dependent, /QUOTE]

Dude--It's one in FOUR. ;)

Sorry, but I don't see the humor. However, there are test for psychological disorsers. Take for example, the MMPI, the ASI for Addictive disorders etc....
We don't laugh at people who have biological diseases such as cancer. However, when someone who is either not an alcoholic or addictthey do not have much empathy for them. Alcoholism and drug addiction is reconized by the AMA as a biological as well as Psychological illness. You know most addicted people didn't ask to become sick. they just took that first drink or drug and off to the races they went. Also schizophrenia and bi-polar disease are very sad. You combine one of these illnesses with addiction and the hope for recovery is much more limited than your garden variety alcoholic/ addict. I will tell you a story about this young beauty queen she had been diagnosed with bi-polar during her teenage years. Well one night while out having a drink with her friends, someone encouraged her to try crack. T :confused: o make a long story short at the age of 25 after 21 treatments for her illnesses she was found in a dumster in Miami. She had left treatment overdosed and the people just through her in a dumpster. I will never forget that funeral. I don't think I have ever seen so much despair from so many people.

Such a contoversial issue, as well as important issue. I figured if cellarites could debate about the existence or not of God for six months maybe this serious issue would draw some intrest. Guess not. Did not expect to step on so many toes. I may be wrong but it seems to me, as many of you that are either effected directly or indirectly would have some imput. Get real!!!!!!

I totally agree that alcohol and drug addiction is a choice - not a disease. They are addictions extremely difficult to overcome for a lot of people, but still choices. The fact that some people do quit, some with rehab or other forms of help, some cold turkey, shows me that unlike a disease, it is a choice. I have family members that I love with some of these problems, so I am familiar with this issue.
My 43 year old ex sister-in-law draws SSI - Supplemental Security Income because she is a drug addict and alcoholic and therefore supposedly unable to work!! Her history of a few emergency room visits due to overdoses (some suicide ?? attempts), admitting herself to rehab centers a few times, and twice being committed to rehab against her will by family members apparently was enough documentation for Social Security for her to qualify for a monthly SSI check. I guess she'll receive these forever, she's drawn it for about 6 or 7 years so far. I think this is just WRONG! Sure, she had a rough childhood, had two kids by the age of 16, has been married and divorced eight times, but life's been rough for a lot of us.
A friend of mine with MS struggled for over two years to become eligible for SSI. By the time she started receiving checks she was in a wheelchair, couldn't walk at all, couldn't comb her hair, get herself to the bathroom, or even write a check without stopping a couple of times to take a break due to the severe pain. THAT is a disease!

Cellar debates rarely result in one person winning the others over to his/her side.

Some threads also develop more slowly than others.

Give it a chance.

Go back and read your own posts. You're right, there's a hell of a lot of questions and damn few answers, so you end up swapping opinions with nothing to back it up. :)

*SIGH*---Brown Thrasher---I do sincerely believe that drug addiction and alcoholism are diseases!!. I was being facetious earlier when I said they should be sterilized then shot (hence, the rolleyes face smiley--those are clues to the writers meaning) and I in no way intended to make light of the very sick girl in the mugshots. You have NO idea just HOW close to home this topic is for me, you don't know me at ALL so lighten up a little and understand that different people have different styles and ways of relating. CRIMONY!

While that is evidence, it's not proof. People have recovered from diseases generally considered incurable before.

I agree there are few answers. However, I think there is more scientific evidence concerning this issue; than for example is there a God or not.......
As I have discussed in other post, there is a book called the AMA that considers addiction a biological issue,ie.. an illness......

I sincerely apologize.... :)

Calling drug addiction a "disease" is both insulting to and demeaning of the addict. It's demeaning in that it promotes a view of the addict as a drug-seeking automaton, removing personal choice from the equation. It's insulting in that it indicates there's something wrong with addiction in itself.

There's a drug that probably a lot more than 1 in 10 Americans are addicted to, the mild stimulant known as caffeine. A mild addiction, but an addiction nontheless. Should addicts think of themselves as diseased? If someone were to offer to wave a magic wand and cure the addiction, would they be wrong to refuse, or to go back to using after being cured? I don't think so.

The harder drugs (including alcohol) are are a bigger problem for the addict. But it's not impossible to be addicted to them without destroying oneself, either. Wolf, you only see the worst of them; there's plenty of drug addicts out there who will not be stepping into your workplace.

But here's the kicker: most disease is closely related to choices.

The top three leading causes of death (in the US) are heart disease, cancer and stroke. The top three actual causes of death -- the activities leading to these causes -- are tobacco use, poor diet with physical inactivity and alcohol consumption.

Is heart disease not a disease because people give it to themselves?

"I'm not an alcoholic, I'm a drunkard; drunkards don't like to go to meetings." -- Jackie Gleason (if I'm not mistaken).

Russ, I am not talking about physical dependence as you have described.
Of course, people become physically dependent on caffien, tobacco, etc....
I am talking about alcoholism and drug addiction that kill people everyday.
Go back and read other post, if you don't mind. Alcoholism and drug addiction is one of our nations most prevelent health problems. By the way, I hope I did not insult you....... :dead: by the way, it is probably insulting to alot of alcoholics and addicts that you would put a caffiene habit in the same class as the horrible illness they are experiencing or trying to overcome.

That is what I like honesty. I was hoping to hear from people suffering from addiction or trying to overcome it. Bottom line. People who do not experience addiction as I am describing have no idea; just like someone not suffering from cancer has no idea...... they may have seen it up close, but they really have no idea...... not even doctors or therapist trying to help the addicted. I don't care how educated they are. Without experiencing addiction there is no real understanding...... I have no idea what it feels like to be dying from MS for example........ :) I am in no way suggesting that you have the illness. Thanks for the post!!!!

[quote]When I wrote this post, I had just picked up my son from his Dad's house - which is, at this time, a half-way house. I've been so proud of him, and happy and hopeful for him thinking he is really going to "make it" this time, after 13 DUI's, many times in jail, 3 times in rehab, etc. It hurts me and my son to see him struggle and hurt fighting alcoholism. When we were leaving, he told us he was going out drinking later with some guys from work. He didn't look happy about it at all, but he was going. He had made the decision - the choice. So, the three of us looked sadly at each other and said good-bye. My son didn't talk on the way home. I didn't either, I didn't know what to say. He's been sober this time for about a month. Seeing my ex hurt my son makes me mad, but still I wish so much that he could stay sober and be happy.
But didn't he make the choice???

[quote=Brett's Honey]Wow--there are so many layers of hurt in there, I don't know where to start so I will just say that my heart goes out to all three of you. Your son!! His son!! Insanity!! How can he be staying at a halfway house that doesn't kick him out for drinking?? I thought that was the whole purpose FOR the 1/2way house. WHY would he say that in front of you two?? There has got to be more to this story. Is he looking for your sympathy, etc.? Addicts are good at that angle as I'm sure you are well aware. A guy with that track record has got to know his days are numbered. Does he have a sponsor, etc? Drinking and drug use is a compulsion for the addict. At times it feels like there is NO choice but to use. If that sounds crazy, then you're not an addict.

They get two days a week out. If they get caught drinking, there are consequences.

Glad you asked. Obviously I need to explore that. I was so wrapped up in MY feelings about the whole thing, I didn't think that far. You're right - he's gotta be wanting to ask for something from us......I think your input will get my thoughts going down a more constructive path now.......thanks!

I don't know how old your son is, but he must be in his 20's-30's to have has 13 dui's and has been in treatment three times.

Most half-way hoses make A.A./N.A. meetings mandatory at leat five times per week. Also, upon arrival from pass(some do :thumbsup: not even have passes), they receive a urine drug screen. alcohol will show up in the body for 24 hrs.

I remeber going to jail in my 20's for DUI. I called my dad; guess what he said. You were smart enough to get in, so you must be smart enough to get out.
However, My mother being the great enabler bailed me out.

The point being, as long as an alcoholic/addict can depend on someome to get them out of their consequnces the pattern will continue.

I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. I'm sure most of you have figured it out anway. I am an alcoholic. The only way an alcoholic/addict will get sober is when the consequences become severe enough that he/she would rather be sober than high. Let me clarify that, it is according to what stage of their addiction they are in. I"ve seen a man get sober and stay that way for many years because his wife threatned to leave him. I've also seen people given the choice of jail or treatment rather go to jail.

There is a thing called intrvention. This is where people who care about the person get together, and they plan an intervention. Mother, father, spouse, girlfriend, pastor etc.... They don't let the affected person know about it. It works better, after the addicted person has just done something negative like going to jail. The intervention group gets together and each person that cares about the person tells the addict how their addiction is affecting their life.

Once again, alcoholics and addicts don't get sober and stay that way unless they want to stay sober more than use. Unless they go to prison or die.

I hope this helps. Remember as long as an addict has someone to clean up their messes, they will most likely continue in their addiction. It's called tough love! I could go on and on, but people have to make their own decisions. Hang in there!!!!!

You're mixing apples and oranges. While certainly on the surface alcoholics and addicts share many of the same cause and effect problems, they are two different animals. That's why AA doesn't want addicts.
Being an alcoholic doesn't make you knowledgeable about addicts and vice versa.
My buddy says he gave up drugs because it interfered with his drinking. :)

You seem to know something about the subject, your right alcoholics don't care much for addicts. However, visit an N.A. meeting and let him introduce himself as an alcoholic. Being an alcoholic, does not make you knowlegable about drug addiction. They do share many traits. It's the social issue in most cases. I assure you to be educated on both sides of the coin. Your buddy did a smart thing, at least he is not still dual-addicted....... :alien:

I don't think there is that drastic of a difference between the two. Addicts and alcoholics share a compulsion to use an addicting substance and the treatment, per se, is very similar. I've never been to an AA meeting where an addict wasn't welcome and visa versa, many people that go to these meeting are cross addicted. While NA and AA use practically the same 12 step program, some of the wording is different to suit each particular addiction.

I"m glad you said that you had never been to an A.A. meeting or N.A. meeting where one or the other wasn't welcome. I have been to A.A. meetings where if the peron telling his story spoke of using drugs certain older garden variety alcoholics would get up and leave. On the other hand I have seen alcoholics called down in N.A. meetings for identifying themselves as alcoholics. IT's a shame, Because as you said the addictions are very similar. I have seen alcoholics and addicts never return to meetings because of their treatment by the so called heirchy of certain meetings......However, for the most part you are right, most sincere alcoholics/addicts are welcome at most meetings whether alcohlic or addict...... ;)

[I wasn't very clear in my post - it is my ex-husband (my son's father) who is the alcoholic. My son and I are trying to give him all the support we can. He knows he likes life better sober, but he cannot seem to stay that way.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I have to Remember to NOT do this for my son, if he should ever start drinking like his Dad does. I watched my Mother enable my younger brother, so I should know what NOT to do!

AA, NA---all the same shit. I've witnessed the grumbling between the two and it's pretty sickening. The fact that people afflicted with the same freakin' disease can't agree to relate should shed a little light on the dilemma alcoholics/addicts face every day with "regular" people. It's like Non-Insulin dependant diabetics feeling superior to Insulin-dependant diabetics. Ridiculous, purile, petty and just stupid. And AA/NA membership can breed more distrust than just obstaining with the help of some local church-group. Invite a member of AA/NA into your house and best not turn your back. I invited a young, single mother in for a cuppa and when my back was turned a few choice items went missing. Gullible Travels. That's me.

Busted.

UDS doesn't test for alcohol. It's in the name. Urine Drug Screen. Different rapid screen kits test for different substances, but a full-blown hospital toxicology dept UDS is much better. Some of the new antidepressants show false positives for things like methamphetamine.

You can test for alcohol via breath test (less reliable) or blood test (preferred, and meets the legal standard for criminal prosecution if the chain of evidence is properly maintained).

The amount of time it takes for alcohol to leave one's system varies based on things like metabolism and whether or not you've already blown your liver, but most people drop at about 0.08/hr. Alcohol does not remain at testable levels in the blood for 24 hours unless you've been doing some serious major drinking.

People in halfway houses without passes still manage to get drunk. Or use. I've heard from quite a few people that there are more drugs in inpatient rehabs than on the street (and that's supposedly a higher security and screening level than a halfway house).

Thanks, Wolf I'M glad it was only you who busted me...... At least I'm not in jail this time. It looks like as many uds I have taken and given, I would have not made such a profound error. You are right. Breathalyser, and blood test, are the techniques used with alcohol. Most treatment centers I worked in or happened to be vacationing at tested for Marijuana, cocaine, amphetimine, opiates, and barbituates. However if they/we were suspicious we would have blood taken. As a matter of fact, you are correct in most everything you stated. However, I will have to disagree about their being more drugs in inpatient rehabs. That is a myth, just like there are more drugs in prison than on the streets is a myth.... also there are other things that can cause false positives, such as poopy seed can cause a false positive for opiates, and some cold medicines can cause false positives for amphetemines. :thumbsup:

There may not be more drugs in prison than on the street but rest assured, for the right price you can get anything you want in prison.

And for what it's worth, inmates returning from off grounds furloughs (yes, minimum security prisons still grant weekend furloughs) are always strip searched, urine screened and if alcohol use is suspected, breath tested.

My suggestion to you is attending AL-Anon meetings, if you haven't already. This program is designed for family members and others that care for an alcoholic. It is a 12 step program such as A.A., but the philosophy of the program, is to learn how to take care of yourself. Most alcoholics hate it when family members do this. One of the main teachings, for lack of a better word, is to learn to quit enabling. I would be dead today if certain people had not said enough is enough. Al-Anon is to help the enabler get back control of their life. An alcoholic out of control, is like a tornado plowing through a trailer park. That is one of the reasons it"s considered an illness. Most alcoholics are some of the nicest people in the world when their not drinking. Do you really think they want do destroy the lives of their loveones? I don't think so. I hope your son want ever drink alcohol because the chances of him having problems will be a distinct possibility. As I have Qouted in other post, a child with a parent that is alcoholic is more likely to become addicted themselves. In another post, I described how many children of alcoholics learn to hate alcohol only to become addicted to other drugs. Please learn to take care of youself!!!! I don't know the relationship you and your ex-husband have, but if your picking him up from half-way houses, there must at least be a strong emotional bind. I hate to say this continually, but a real alcoholic, will continue to drink until the negatives outweigh the positives. Sadly,sometimes, even all the negatives are not enough. The reason I started this thread, is because most people believe an alcoholic is a bad person trying to get good. He/she is a sick person trying to get well, If they are indeed trying to help themselves.....
I'm not trying to discourage you. There have been many sucess stories. Some through A.A.. some through church, and some whose alcoholism had not progressed to the chronic state on their own. However, the latter, either eventually went back to drinking or were very miserable people. No one jump on me, there is always exceptions to the rule. I'm just giving you my 32 year experience and what I have learned through education......and on both sides of the fence. I hope this somehow helped....... I need to make one other point. I said that the people that quit on their own usally returned to drinking.
However, I have seen People go to A.A. for twenty years religiously, to only relapse and die...... This is a topic many don't understand or just don't care because it does not directly effect their life. I feel sure there is hope for you ex.... I don't mean to pry, but if things continue as they are, I would put my concentration on myself and my son.......

He's not addicted at all. As a founder of several local AAs, an AA rep on two state and county addiction panels and a personal friend of Dr Bob, he's quite knowledgable. Or at least he tells me he is....repeatedly. :)
Personally, I'm more aquainted with addicts than alcoholics, so I'm more familier with their problems.

I need a drink...........make mine a dubble.....................

A little contradiction. You are the one that said that your friend gave of drugs because it was intefering with his alcohol. However you are right if he does drink alcohol or do drugs that does not mean he is addicted. I'm glad your friend is associated with A.A... The program is quite helpful to some alcoholics. If your talking about Dr. Bob, who with Bill W. founded A.A. in the 1930"s He must be quite OLD and knowledgable.

" Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers"
This is a book about the Co-founder of A.A.
I suppose this is the Dr. Bob you are talking about.

He again was the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He helped Bill W. write the original Big Book The original textbook for A.A. first printed in 1939.

The Big Book has been revised many times. It is still what some who participate in A.A. call the bible for recovering alcoholics....

So, what is your point?
For the right price you can by anything on most any street corner, if you know where to go. If you still trying to convince me there are more drugs in prison than on the streets, you are wrong.......
I have taught classes on addiction and other things like taking responsibility for ones mistakes in more than one institution. I've actually been on the searches.... so what does that tell us? Are we afraid to accept that maybe some of our institutions run by the govt. are flawed????????

An alcoholic/addict will steal your wallet. But the addict will help you hunt it.

Your statement does not make sense to me. However, I think it was attempt at humor. That's good, I like sick humor at times.........Better sick humor than none at all..... :)

Oh well then, if you've actually "been on the searches", I guess that tells us you are the expert on what the real deal is inside our prison systems. Guess I don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion. I mean I only did 20 years inside as a meer correctional officer so what would I know about the availability of drugs in prison? :eyebrow:

Error, I dont' claim to be an expert on anything. I am definetly sorry for your misfortune of spending 20 years with psychopaths. My point was, as it is now, there are more drugs on the streets than in prison. I know there are drugs in prison, but I think you said there were more drugs in prison than on the streets. If I am wrong, about your statement. Please accept my apology..... ;)

This is what I said in response to your statement that it was a myth about there being more drugs in prison than on the street.

Once again, I apologize. You are right. Someone made the statement, that there were more drugs in an inpatient treatment than on the streets.... I made the statement that was a myth. I went on to say that was like saying there were more drugs in prison than on the streets.. Also, I agree with enough money, you can get about anything you want in prison; just like you can on the streets..... :)

To clarify, he gave up drugs because they interfered with his drinking. For many years he scoffed at Dr Bobs assertion he was an alcoholic. He could handle it. :rolleyes: Then about 25 years ago he hit bottom and ever since has been sober and heavily involved in AA, founding chapters, staffing hotlines, lobbying pols and preaching the AA gospel. Yeah, he's old.

Bless him. A.A. really works for people who want it to work. Most everybody preaches something..... If preaching A.A. :) is helping him and others, more pwer to him......

You know, the whole preachy-thing about AA is what turns me off. Why can't AA be more like Jesus? And why does everybody have to be so mean to the Newcomer? And why do you have to do 90 meetings in 90 days if you didn't drink 90 days in a row????? :bitching:

Because after 90 odd years of trial and error they've found out that works. :)

I'll drink to that*

*soda! Drink soda!!

I wish there was an entity as effective as AA for meth users. I know there are various 12-step programs that sort of blanket the whole realm of addiction, but meth is a filthy, filthy drug that deserves separate attention.

I've got two friends who are hooked on it, and one of them is almost to the point of no return, brain-wise. She doesn't even talk like an intelligent person anymore. I imagine her heart rate is similar to that of a small bird, and she weighs about as much. She's had an intervention, she's been in jail, she's been broke, she's been raped, she sells both meth and her own body (although she swears she's not 'working' anymore, no one really believes her). Her teeth used to be beautiful, but they're nasty and brown now. Oddly enough, her hair's still in, and she doesn't have the burn marks on her fingertips from the pipe anymore. I hope she's not injecting. Age -- 23.

Meth is the filthiest drug ever invented.

Wow--23. Such a waste! They are thinking of passing a law here in OH to limit the amount of sudafed you can buy in a month. Anything like that in CO??

Here in my town, in La, they keep the ephedrin based products behind the counter. You can buy them now problem, you just have to ask for them.

As to the people who do it to themselves after people have tried to help them repeatedly, more power to them, do more drugs and faster. It's part of my drug legalization platform.