A mirrow reflection.
 

Don't deny it, unless you are a part of the small percent of this population who can.

Heh. You sure do love showing how uppity and shallow we are, don't you?

love it...

I protest... I am not an addict of buying things. I can stop anytime! I...ehh.. hmmm.. Nevermind. :]

Wow, that's such a clever and insightful cartoon. I bet the artist is the best one in his high school. :-)

Nic, what *is* a "greanary", (other than the name of your web site)? Is it like a granary?

That's FreeYourself, not Nic, and I was wondering the same thing a few months ago whenever I visited his site.

Sorry...all these newbie kids are starting to sound the same. I meant to say "is a mirrow like a mirror?"

...
 

I meant to say mirror, sorry.

The Greanary is a name that I and a friend came up with to describe our site. Since no such word exists, we decided to put a meaning to it by designing a webpage that is for those people who choose not to 'follow the leader' so-to-speak. In order to do this, we surely couldn't use a name already used!?!?

I wish i had more time to work on the page cause i'd love to; it's pretty empty.


"Live simply so that all may simply live"


Why must you have a bigger tv?
...a bigger house?
...a faster car?
...whiter teeth?
...smoother hair?
...bigger sound system?
...newer shoes?

I want to know for I have seen through these empty pleasures.

http://enough.enviroweb.org/enough08.htm

"Any relation that does exist
between happiness and
income is relative rather than
absolute. the happiness
people derive from
consumption is based on
whether they consume more
than their neighbours and
more than they did in the past.
The upper classes in any
society are more satisfied with
their lives than the lower
classes are, but they are no
more satisfied than the upper
classes of much poorer
countries, nor than the upper
classes were in the less
affluent past."
Michael Argyle, The
psychology of happiness

greanary.com is AVAILABLE

You can use any active registrar to reserve your domain name.

Be sure to research the company thoroughly as features, pricing and service do vary greatly.

another...

Well, you're all cool for being all enlightened and shit, but...

----
Why must you have a bigger tv?
...a bigger house?
...a faster car?
...whiter teeth?
...smoother hair?
...bigger sound system?
...newer shoes?
----


-I want a bigger tv because I like to watch movies, and the larger image (and generally better image quality) afforded by a widescreen television enhances my viewing pleasure. A lot.

-I want a bigger house to put my TV in. To move about in. To chase my cats around in. To entertain people in. To have a place to put guests when they arrive in town and need a place to crash.

-I want a faster car to get the places that I want to go .. FASTER. I'd rather take 1 hour to get the mountain, and ski an extra hour, than take 2 hours to get there. ... safety concerns aside. ;)

-I want whiter teeth because yellowed teeth are generally a sign of tooth decay, which is in turn indicative of gum disease. We are genetically predisposed to choose mates that we believe to be strong and healthy. I enjoy being a part of that whole "mating" thing.

-smoother hair: dunno dude.. you've lost me.

-bigger sound system: see: TV.

-newer shoes: Because when I play ball in my current shoes, the soles tend to slip on the court, because they are worn through. When I can't cut as fast as I want, or post up properly, it diminishes my enjoyment of the game..


I dunno man. There's a lot to be said for consumerism. I'm glad you're enlightened, but... I enjoy my consumerist lifestyle.


oh well.

"I dunno man. There's a lot to be said for consumerism. I'm glad you're enlightened, but... I enjoy my consumerist lifestyle.

oh well."


Those last 2 words are the exact response to 99% of north america. Being glad can only accomplish so much dude. It's time act!

I want you to enjoy your lifestyle, just like i want everyone to, but do it in a way not destructive to our environment and/or too the people of this world that we so often 'appear' to forget about.

A bitter bite of reality. I quite like it.



Have you sent any of this stuff into local/national papers and written an editorial? Its good stuff.

So, what are you trying to say?
 

"I want you to enjoy your lifestyle, just like i want everyone to, but do it in a way not destructive to our environment and/or too the people of this world that we so often 'appear' to forget about."

That's a very different message than your cartoon is trying to send. The cartoon says that I am like a heroin addict, since I'd like a bigger house, etc. That's a pretty harsh message, especially now that you're saying that it's actually OK to want these things. Maybe toning down your retoric will help your argument - nobody wants to be insulted (assuming that most people think being called a junkie is an insult). Insulting people won't change their minds.

Alex

Heh. I guess I'm just missing out on this bitter bite of reality, 'cause I really don't see it.

I'm not going to get into Darwinism here; rather, I'm just going to say that blaming the western world for all problems is silly and counter-productive. It truly does nothing to help your (what I assume to be noble) goal, and instead, discredits you to those who would normally pay attention to what you have to say. A bigger TV or a faster computer or a different car are all reasonable things to want, just as I'm sure many in the third world would enjoy having. Are they part of the problem by wanting a better life? Are they part of the problem by wanting to be immersed in their movies, or wanting to drive a safe and comfortable car (Volvo S70, awwww yeah)? You sure don't paint them so, yet they're really no different than us, with the exception for the fact that my annual income is greater than theirs. I am fortunate enough to have been born in a country whose government and citizens have pushed it forward. Any country can do this - they just need the leadership to do so. Take a look at Japan, for example - before World War II, they were underdeveloped. Immediately after World War II, they produced shit - Japanese electronics were laughable. Now, they produce some of the highest quality products available worldwide. They have the world's 2nd largest economy. It wasn't magic. It was hard work and the right leadership. Most any country can do this.

Anyway, I really think you've watched "Fight Club" too many times and gotten the wrong message.

99%? Come on. You just made that up. Everyone knows that it's really 76.89%.

PS--No one is taking you seriously for a reason.

I'm sorry but offending people that choose paths destructable to others is very mild when compared to the destruction they cause.

By accusing me, one who's choosen to give voice to these people, you're only deffending those who decide lives are expendable.

Oh ya, an addict yes. But look deeper. Who's at loss to this addiction, besides the person him/herself? possibly the people of the sun? Those people who build the items which we are addicted to buying.

And YES, that is harsh. I'm sorry but reality is harsh, especially in this corporate world where they try to make everything seem as if it's hunky dory.

I say 99% meaning Virtually Everyone.

And YES I can assume this.

Tune into reallity sometime and just watch. Why do you see lil kids wanting and wanting and as they get older still wanting and wanting.

I bet you have neumorous things in the back of your mind that you want to buy, and will.


You want a Volvo? Why not donate to greenpeace instead and settle for a sunfire. Maybe helping the rainforests, or maybe helping make more strict laws for toxic wasts.

Donate, assuming you're unfamilliar because you appear to put yourself ahead of everyone, means to give out of the kindness, yes kindness, of your heart to a worthy cause. This is not to be confused with investing in an oil company only to have you money doubled in a year and the natural world depleted more.

Think, that's all I ask.

You're funny.

No one gives a shit if you offend someone. But consider this scenario:

You're posting on an internet forum and you have some rather unorthodox views.

Two people approach you about these views. One of them says "Hey FreeYourself, you fucking dickface cocksucker heroin addict, personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of starving children of whereever, your views are wrong."

The other says "Look, I see what you're saying, but I think maybe your argument is a bit flawed. See, when you look at it like this..." and then goes on to, rationally, thoughtfully and kindly support their view, without calling you names.

Who are you going to be inclined to listen to?

Now. That aside.

First, drop the word "accusing" - we're not accusing, we're stating facts. You're likening consumers to heroin addicts. Period.

Second, I'm not defending those who decide lives are expendable. I'm defending a lifestyle which I quite enjoy, and whom those in the Philippines or the Congo or whereever would quite enjoy as well, provided they were represented by a government that actually strove to make the country a better place rather than lining their own deep pockets. I'm defending their choice to come to America and live it up.

Third, your "But look deeper" line is almost totally BS. As far as the political cartoon is concerned, the intent is not to portray the victims in a friendly light or maybe help them out. It is, instead, to ridicule the consumer, likening them to a heroin addict. There's nothing deeper to look at, because you didn't give it to us, and neither did the cartoonist. That's it. Thanks.

Fourth, we've been over this, but you were out on the discussion, so I'll sum it up: a lot of us by American made products. I personally do it so I can help create well paying jobs for my fellow citizens. Some items are produced in less-than-great situations elsewhere in the world. Some are produced in downright awful conditions. If you want to enact change, maybe you should try and politely open the eyes of the world instead of acting all uppity and smart about it.

"And YES, that is harsh." Not really. You're giving yourself too much credit here. Stop trying to sound all insightful - you're not Yoda, for fuck's sake, and when you talk like that, it does nothing to help get your message across - instead, it makes you sounds like an idiot.

I'm trying to help you here, by giving you some tips for improving your argument. Are you listening? Were you listening last time?

Post some facts. Show me that they're facts. Cut down the rhetoric and talk to me as a human being. People aren't convinced by assholes - they're convinced by kind words that make sense. You seem to really care about making a difference (I personally don't care whether or not you pick up on this, which is why I can be an asshole about it) - learn how to make people believe your argument, instead of turning their ears off.

Alright, fair enough.

A man driven by numbers and dollar signs needs just that to convince him elsewise.

I've read facts, I've lived facts, I hate facts and never remember them. Should that make my arguments any less? I guess so.

I'm not saying I'm going to change your life by my postings on a message board on the Internet. I'm just giving you the oppinion of another HUMAN BEING and not numbers.

If you're not the type to listen, or even consider, a persons word becuase it's not backed up by numbers and refferences than I'm not the one to help sway your mind, for what is in my mind, for the better.

Here you go again...

How old are you? I'm just curious. I can't see this coming from someone 25+, unless you're stark raving mad. Seriously. How old are you? What's your name? I feel worse about being a dick if I know something about you.

Now. Firstly, Volvo's cars are made in Sweden from swedish parts. So I'm taking that money and purchasing from a well established company that doesn't use cheap labor. Thank me for that. I'm doing the world a favor.

Volvos are also safer cars, meaning that I'm more likely to live a long time, die of natural causes and leave a ton of money behind to some nice charities, instead of getting smashed up at the age of 25 in my piece of shit Sunfire.

"Fucking moron", in case you're unfamiliar with the term, means someone like you. That means, someone who assumes traits about another's character based solely upon unrelated discussion. Nice dramatic pausing ("kindness, yes kindness") - that really moved me. Could you please stop posting now? I feel like I'm getting stupider from reading them, and you certainly aren't helping my productivity at work.

Do me a fucking favor: Don't think. That's all I ask! Maybe then we'll be safe from your drivel.

Every generation has idealistic, passionate youth.

That's a good thing.

Age will bring a broader perspective and some wisdom, for sure.

I just hope Free Himself doesn't get all cynical about the western capitalist pigs and go off to join the Taliban. :)

There is no moral equivalency between No Nukes and No Nikes.

Don't lose the passion, Free Spirit. Just take your time to learn what's going on in the world (sweatshops included).

Then pick your causes, and make a difference in the world around you that your kids will appreciate.

And try to enjoy life along the way.

Tee hee! You're so cute when you make shit up!

I love you.

There's a cool way to get this important message heard.

This Note's For You

http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.n...25690E0015D4B5

Neil Young talks the talk and walks the walk.

With wife Pegi, Young co-founded the Bridge School for Handicapped Children near San Francisco, and each year holds a star-studded benefit. Their son Ben has cerebral palsy and attended the school. Young has also founded a company that makes devices for the disabled, as well as high-tech toys — one of the company's projects is manufacturing an improved wheelchair that Young helped design. The irascible elder statesman of rock eschews the trappings of fame and lives a rather reclusive life on his Northern California ranch. He declines most interviews, and has said that he will no longer grant them to Rolling Stone, in particular, because of its perfumed ad inserts: "I don't like the way the magazine smells."

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25690D000D3168

Thanks Neil, for this note, and your life's body of work.

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25699D002A2C5F

OK I confess
 

I own a really cool house. I lay awake in it at night, dreaming of building a huge back porch, putting in skylights, of buying a boat or ultralight airplane to put in the 3-car garage, of wiring it for ethernet and cable and sound. And so much more, of filling the closets with nice clothing, the rooms with nice furniture, and being able to just enjoy life in peace.

I can't afford everything at once, but I can manage it slowly. So I wait, buy things when I can, and build my dreams as I live out my years.

I know my neighbors, have lots of friends and enjoy my world.

Am I evil?

FreeYourself, I applaud you for your effort and intent. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, and agree with it to an extent.

Although I have no problem with the pics posted, I do have a recommendation: How you feel is completely cool, but if you want to change minds, educate people. Which means, bring on the facts. (And truth be told, without facts, you'll be eaten alive by some folks here. And why not? Facts help tell the story, hence educate.) These pictures are really nothing more than shock value, which doesn't seem to work on Western society when it comes to an issue like this. You look no better than one of those protestors in Genoa or Seattle.

Out of curiosity, what are you doing to help our environment and our world as a whole? Hopefully, you are practicing what you preach.

Freebie, I have a problem with your posture that " I speak for the poor masses....I give them voice..." Who are you? what have you lived? How pompous and disrespectful sounding. You dont seem honest, yet I want to imagine that you are sincere in your desire to make the world better. There seems to be no experience, only rhetoric and quick sound bites. The cartoon isnt shocking, kinda trite.

So that's my take, if you really wish to evangelize you need some new strategies. You need to communicate for real. quantitatively or qualitatively.

Re: OK I confess
 

Not at all. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with wanting material things or wanting better for yourself.

I confess too: I want a PS2. I want a 2002 VW Jetta, fully loaded. I want an iMac. I think we're all guilty of being materialistic at one point or another. And I don't think we should be ashamed for thinking that way. When I go into a store to buy a new shirt, I'm not really thinking, "Hey, did a 5-year old in a dump factory in Thailand make this shirt, getting paid 5 cents an hour?" No, I'm thinking, "How much is this, and will it fit?" It's nearly impossible to try and take all that into consideration, when I've got 9 million things on my mind (as do most others).

There are some "betterment" things that cross my mind more than others: I won't buy an SUV, b/c I think they're too big and get horrible gas mileage (not only hurting my pocketbook, but the environment). I don't litter b/c I hate seeing trash strewn about, plus I don't want to pay a fine.

We're only human in the end.

Oh I just *have* to weigh into this one.



The point is that first world lifestyles currant - are unsustainable, allot of things about it are unsustainable. Our economic model requires constant expansion, a bit like a bloated pyramid scheme (joking), and when that stops, we get into very hot water till lit all falls over enough to get back on its feet. The environmental impact is unbelievably destructive, and without major changes is going to truly fuck us up .There are about 10 listed "damocean swords", disasters waiting to happen that could knock out serious percentages of the words food production capacity, not to mention existing toxic waste sites, destruction of farmland by overfertilisation, salination of land (hug problem here, greenhouse effect (and please don't argue it doesn't exist, nearly every credible scientific body in the world agrees on this) , destruction of the worlds "carbon sinks" (Amazon etc), the list goes on and on.

As for the consumerist attitudes, that’s much more complicated. It is social conditioning to want this shit, whatever it is 9im' not saying I’m immune by a long shot), it’s a bit of a vicious cycle though. We are working longer and longer hours - for what? Overtime pay? Promotion? So we can buy a bigger house? Get the kinds the playstation 2 for Christmas? Or in my girlfriend’s father’s case, buy a $20,000 home theater to beat the neighbor’s $10,000 one (I’m not making that up - its bloody nice too, I’m not complaining ;), we make of the growing spiritual void in our lives with material object. Your marriage falling apart? Buy more shit, I’m privileged enough to watch this in about 5-6 friends families.


I would agree with that though.


Now you sound just as stupid....Sure, we'll just let all the third world come to the first world...that’s realistic, that’s anywhere near the truth, plehease.... In australia for example we take refugees that wash up on our shores and lock them up in camps in the middle of the desert until they go stark raving mad which we then use as an excuse to deport them. Inbetween we sing the national anthum "for those who come across the seas we've boundless plains to spare"

Next time I go to Vietnam (not going this year :( ) ill bring back some piccies of the Nike sweatshops..
Not everything can be proved with facts, numbers, statistics you know. What statistic can there be for these things? The average love index for New York in Q3 2001? Humanity doesn't produce many statistics I’m afraid.

edit - aded a little and spellchecked so its legible, sorry juju, i usually do for the long posts :)

Jag, i'm glad you're weighing in, because your opinions are interesting to me. But for god's sake, spell check!! :)

Re: third world coming to first world

Jaggy baby, I covered this. Countries *can* and *do* make huge progress when they're motivated. Look at Japan (and while you're looking, I'll be over here, snooping through your stuff!). A lot of these countries have great natural resources - they just need to *want* to change. I'm sure many of them don't. My point is, that's not your fault. You shouldn't feel guilty over drooling on my PowerMac G4, and neither should some poor african. And if they want to change it that badly, they should come to American or Canada or some country that will support them in their dream.

Re: facts.

FreeYourself's comment was, very obviously, directed at me. It is also blatantly false. I am not driven by numbers or dollar signs - I am driven by intellectual conversation and, when challenged, backing up your <b>assertions</b> with <b>facts</b>. He (she? it?) is making shit up to dehumanize me and make me appear to be materialistic and greedy, when really, I just like living how I do, have compassion for the rest of the world and, above all, like intelligent people. If he hadn't degraded the conversation by getting into namecalling, I would have never needed to make that comment. I don't expect numbers or dollars - I expect some evidence. I'm not some gullible schmuck here - that's why I reject the Bible. Anything or anyone that makes claims without substantiating them is blowing hot air, as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this..

To go though it slowly.



Which are then exploited by multinationals with buggar all benefits to the local - or overtly exploited permanently fucking up half the country/people. That material that is needed for capacitors comes to mind, or coal in China, or open cut mining in general.


Classic! I can just see Zambia or somewhere as the little train going up the GDP hill (I know I can I know I can - if I wasn’t clobbered by first world tariffs, enormous debt and total lack of infrastructure/positive international investment.

The fact you think they can jut get up and wander into a first world country like that makes your point laughable to begin with - didn't you read what I said? The waiting lists and processes associated with getting in are huge, and even illegal methods costs one hell of allot of money (trips to Australia from places like Iran average about US$10,000 ,for us that’s big of them its like a wealthy families life savings.

I can't frigging blame them sometimes. Happiest people I ever met were Buddhist monks, the philosophy is simple, attachment to impermant objects (dishwashers, Volvos, G4s, web discussion sites, schools) causes pain - because they do not last, when you are free of attachment to material objects, you will be happy. Sure seems to work. It does illustrate how deep attachment and desire for these things go, it’s not a new thing, it’s not a capitalist thing, but as we continue to try and live like machines, I think it’s getting worse. Damnit there is a ghost in the machine.


Of often its not that easy, I could point out stats like increasing working hours etc but its so easy to dismiss circumstantial evidence like that its not worth my time, I agree FreeYourself's method of putting his point across stand of moral high ground but if you push that shit aside, he does have a point.



Parents are working longer to get promotions or whatever so kids spend longer in care, in turn parents feel guilty to lavish kids with material shit like consoles, expensive toys etc which to buggar all to alleviate the problem, marriages fall apart, divorce lawyers make a killing but then spend it on crack to quench their deep guilt, nasty circle. (yes I realize how silly the last paragraph is but most of that early stuff I can back up with stats, care hours/work hours are increasing though the roof, divorce is at an all time high (although there are other factors of that of course) the list goes on)

I feel quite sure some poor African couldn’t give a fuck about your G4, he would just like some food, and maybe some new farming tools. Obviously then he'd want a tractor, larger fields, etcetc but I think you are missing the scale of the problem. Have you ever been to a third world country? Fuck the pictures, fuck the world vision ads, you have to see it with your own eyes to understand, I didn't get it until I saw a kid dead in a gutter.

Ah, always good to see our young intellectual corps (dham and jag) in action. I almost missed this. ;) But we have a bit too much emotion in here at the moment. Where's tw?

Hm. Probably a naive view, but..

I think the conditions for these people might be better working in sweatshops than outside. Definitely underpaid and possibly unsanitary, but you're comparing it to our conditions rather than local conditions.

Are people like FreeYourself complaining about how bad of conditions greedy corporations are making people live in, or that they're taking away from American jobs that the employers would have to pay decent wages for, and keep the consumer's money in the American economy?

The entertaiing double edged sword that is globalisation i'm glad is finally biting america on the arse, thousands of out of work coders replaced by cut-rate coders in India and the like...



Having visited both Nike nad Adidas Factories in Vietnam i can tell you a: Nike is far worse, b: Even by lcoal conditions, it sucks.

Remember the "night sky" image?

http://cellar.org/2002/nskorea.gif

That wher do you want to go today line was distubing...

NOrth Korea is a special example, not many countires are cursed with such a terrible leadership.

I'm going to keep this short, 'cause I need to get up in 5 hours.

Which is why they need a government to stand up for them, like I said before.

Do you know what people do when they want something bad enough? <b>They find a way to do it</b>. It's probably not easy, and it's probably not cheap, and it might take a fucking long time, but <b>anything is possible</b>. Don't give me that shit about it being hard. Life is hard, as I'm sure they'd tell you. If you want something bad enough, you make it yours.

As for going there, no, I haven't. The awfulness of the situations is not the point, and neither is the understanding of them. What is important is human nature, and the willpower to enact change. Great people have done great things, even with the most meager of tools. Look no farther than Gandhi. Humans can do whatever they want, as long as they want it bad enough. That's my point, and that's all.

Ever looked upon Fravia's opinion (at searchlores.org) concerning a more militant protest of forced consumerism? I believe F calls it 'Reality Jamming' or something like that...

While your faith in individuals is inspiring, I’m a bit of a Marxist at heart, individuals are largely irrelevant.



While you quoted half of what I said.
The other half...
The fact is that to gain power you need a tool - read the foundation series by Asimov - they have been on a shitty planet but they had tech, and used that as leverage to get other power. These countries have a: labor b: irreplaceable natural resources, both of which are exploited, with little long term benefit to the people involved.

As for this perverted American dream idea that if you want something enough well you can get it etcetc, sorry but its time you thought from reality, not some high flying fancy notion. You’re a farmer, lets say a poppy farmers (SO what you sell helps mentally disturbed westerners disattach themselves from their pitiful existences - sorry I couldn’t help myself) in Burma, you want to bring yourself and your family to a first world nation. YOU have no saving, no money stores with which to even buy food to support yourselves if you went by foot, how the fuck are you meant to do it? How can entire nations of people who want to do it do it? The third world, millions of people are stopped yearly at he border of Europe, begging to be let into the prosperity that lies across the border, its not that simple. What do you expect? Some Ghandi-like figure to lead the masses across the borders? Mass protest that will force Europe, Australia and America to open themselves to endless hordes of the impoverished?

The only way these countires can rise out of poverty is if ABSOLUTEL FUCKING BULLSHIT idea of a free market that is continually sputed by BORWNNOSING, BULLSHIT STUFFED POLITICANS WHO SHOULD BE FORECD TO SPEND 6 MONTHS SHOVELLING SHIT TO SEE WHAT ITS LIKE BEFORE THEY SPOUT THAT KIND OF BULLSHIT (sorry that really gets to me) implimented totally - no tarifs, no industry subsidies. ON an even plain they have the advanteages to be able to slwoly rise.

From what I can tell, the local government has to provide an infrastructure of laws that permits trade, prevents fraud and (this is the most important part) that is respected by the government itself, that is, that won't be broken just because someone finds it convenient at some point.

I think, but I'm not sure, that this means a system of deeds and titles to prove ownership, so that the concept of ownership settles in. If people are to improve their land, they need to know that it won't merely be taken over after the next change in leadership.

Re: ...
 

Quality over quantity.
Bigger TV: It's 27". I like it that way.

Bigger house: because my apartment was too small to hold my stuff, and besides, renting was getting to be a drag.

Faster car: Because I enjoy driving fast.

Whiter teeth: Would be nice, but genetics dictate against it.

Smoother hair: I need a haircut, but not smoother hair. However, really rough hair is hard to comb and isn't nice to play with, so I can see why people would want smoother hair.

Bigger sound system: Sorry, I'm not a music person

Newer shoes: because my old shoes are falling apart and/or are soiled past the point of no return.

And replaced them with an equally empty asceticism? Sounds like a raw deal; if you're going to be empty you may as well have pleasure.

Doesn't this thread belong under Politics? To be honest I kind of like the fairly non-political nature of IotD.

Probably. But part of IotD is that it has discussions based around the images. You always have the option of not reading any given discussion.

I don't know if it really could be classified as Politics, so much as maybe Current Events. FreeYourself happened to place it here in IotD, but it could be in one of several areas.

I myself would have put it in dham's weblog, just to get a rise out of him. ;)

You know what pic I want to find? I want that one that the military is dropping on Afghanistan...the one with Osama looking all westernized. That one was funny!

....... I know this is kinda offtopic, but I laughed pretty hard when I saw this post... I am going to flag it as the first time dm has said that he's loved anyone.. ;)

he loves me! i'm his sister. he has to.

he loves me! i'm his sister. he has to.

Ut - Yes, but one of the prerequisites for a stable governemnt is a stable economy, or an economy at all, look at Argentina for a currant example.