We need math
 

Partly inspired by the busterb thread.

"Why do I need to study math," everyone always says, "I'm never going to use it."

I realized the other day that, quite often, I think in the language of mathematics. I think there is a great advantage in being able to do so. This despite the fact that I was a terrible math student. Only now do I realize why I should have worked a little bit harder at it.

Equations - a gut-level understanding, "common sense math", of how they work out is critical. For example, if you buy a car, you face down a very straight-forward equation involving at least the values: interest, monthly amount paid, quoted price. Often there are even more values. You can look for a financing calculator to run the equation, but if you understand how equations work in general, you're better off. And these kinds of equations are found all over personal finance.

How this works on X-Y graphs is something I always think about. In economics, for example, this graph usually winds up being the supply curve, the rules of which pretty much explain why everything costs what it does.

Probability is all over the place. Sometimes it's obvious, such as seeing probability in gambling or games or sports. Sometimes it's in health, or behavior, as in determining what is risky for you. It's always around in business. And in all these cases, an understanding of statistics usually comes into play as well.

Geometry - a realtor once told me he couldn't believe how many realtors were unable to figure out basic square footage. That is unbelieveable to me.

[quote=Undertoad]Partly inspired by the busterb thread.

"Why do I need to study math," everyone always says, "I'm never going to use it."

Yep I was one of thoughs. Years later when a pipe fitter, I did things the hard way. Like draw the sob on floor. In the 80s I when to electronic school. When we tried to learn about phase angles, I learned more shit than ever. Because I could apply this to what I knew. I bought a Sharpe el-506a and the instrutor taught me to use it. Do tricks on job, hell yes. Angles, give them to me.
Boy I showed my ass in class, he would put an angle on blk.board that was simple, like a 45. All the "way" younger classmate would be hitting the calculators. I was the oldest AH there. I knew the answer from my work as pipe fitter.
But now my 506a has passed on, and the new ones have too many tricks for my old brain.
If I remember right, give me the angle and 1 side & I'll tell you the rest of story.
I have a book case full of books, on math, piping engineering, physics. geomerty, trig. Too bad I'm too stupid "maybe uneducated would be a better choice of words here." to understand most.
BECAUSE I was too hard headed to get the basics down while in school! My working years as a welder & pipe fitter would have been so much easer.
Nuff said. Tnxs UT.

Just wait until you run into mathematical models that don't exist in real life...Dirac Delta functions that have infinite height and zero width, multidimensional theoretical algebra...

But, if you like classical music, you can learn to love math ;-)

BTW. At some time my GI bill was about to run out. So I took a course in civil engineering from ICS. They even sent me a slide rule. I was the super on job offshore and would get some collage kid to tutor me nights. But he got busted for grass on a shake down inspection. My work load got so big that I didn't have time to keep it up, and lost a wife along the way:)

You're lying. Engineers don't associate with girls.

If there was one mathematics subject I'd tell people to pay close attention to, and at least master the basics in, it would be probability.

Not only will it help you stay away from gambling at casinos, cause you'll know exactly WHY yer gonna lose, and how fast....but it really helps in just about any decision you'll ever make.

"Yeah, maybe it's possible that monkeys might fly out of my ass someday, but it ain't the way to bet." Unless you're Jim Carrey. And I STILL think that was done with mirrors. :D

Looking at most things in life as a "bell curve", really helps in planning for disasters. Keeps you realistic. Defeats the tendency towards an "all or nothing" personality. Which keeps you even-tempered.

Life and people don't surprise you disastrously as much, 'cause you had a sense of the odds going in. That sorta thing. It also explains exactly why the "80-20" rule is so important in being effective in your time management, for instance. Perfectionism kills.

It also teaches you that being 10% to 20% better at your job than your co-workers is good enough, and to devote the rest of your time to your family. (Although it's better that only your boss and HIS boss know this, rather than your co-workers, for social reasons. :D )

I really can't stress enough how much the study of probabilty has exceeded ANY other branch of math in being of use to me. If they didn't teach it to you in high school, grab an introductory primer on it and read it. One of the best investments you'll ever make.

Just to show the laws of probabilty, when I was working in CA. They changed the odds of the lottery, Hell it only went from something like 49 to 51. Someone from CA. can correct me on that., But if you do the math on that, right only 2 numbers. So ok. So just punch it in & see what math will tell you, about the odds of winning crap.

Learning numbers (and associated trends) expose scams. For example, according to hype, we are all dead - killed by aids. The naive simply hyped a linear projection. Exponential curves applied.

According to hype, we are all crack addicts. What happened? Again they were hyping a linear projection. Those who don't first demand numbers were decieved by the 'lying by telling half truths'.

Cited in another discussion are trends associated with a simple calculation - horsepower per liter. A number that even a decade ago said GM had major financial problems. Had you not been watching the numbers, then you don't yet know you will be paying for the $billions that GM failed to put into their pension funds. Another S&L type scandel.

The naive go the Costco or Wawa because gasoline is sold for five cents less a gallon. Had they been doing the numbers, then they brand name gasoline is less expensive even though sold for 5 cents more per gallon. More miles per penny.

The infamous Lisa Thomas Laurie of Action News who claimed Toyota and Honda were the most stolen cars. First we demand numbers she would not provide. Why? They could steal every Corvette and it still would never appear on LTL's list of most stolen cars. She did not provide numbers, so she could 'lie by telling half truths'.

A symptom of a junk scientist: he fears to provide numbers. Numbers - that also showed why aluminum tubes could not be used for manufacturing weapons of mass destruction. Numbers that accurately suggested those tubes were for cloning the Medusa - an Italian rocket.

Numbers that told many that Enron was not what it claimed to be (and greed that said ignore the numbers).

Numbers such as the amount of electricity in Iraq that still does not meet what was produced when Saddam was in power.

Numbers such as how the death rate of Iraqis and Americans is increasing every year in Iraq while we are told of a 'light at the end of a tunnel'. The numbers say one thing. Why does the administration ignore those numbers? Junk scientists - or some other reason?

Numbers such as the cost per science experiment on the ISS.

Numbers such as the sharp increase in global warming in only the last 100 years.

Numbers such as an overdue and pending major earthquake in the Missouri region.

Numbers such as all that spend nuclear fuel with no place to put it.

Numbers that Feynman put in the Challenger accident report to demonstrate why seven astronauts were killed. What is the probability of those rockets exploding. The workers said one in 300 flight. The management said one in every 50,000 flights. Damning numbers when one wants the truth.

By God TW. I'm glad to know that. But I think UT's post was more about basic math for the working people, in ever day life. NOT sending someone to the fucking moon. IMHO

Good thing we're not hyping a linear projection where none applies.

Damn good thing that no one is even close to "what" I think UT's post was about. IMHO

Nothing new, Buster. We hardly ever have linear threads either. :lol:

10-4 :)

I appreciate UT's point. But even basic numbers cause too many eyes to glaze over.

You know what the price is at the grocery store before checkout. So why do you not know how much that phone call is until the monthly bill arrives? If we really were interested in quantitative information, then we would demand to (be able to) know what that phone call costs before placing it. Are you over your minutes? How do you know until the bill arrives with a massive surcharge? Did your cell phone company (ie Sprint) change your calling plan from 1000 minuted to 500 minutes? Then that call costed how much? If we really cared to understand quantitative information, then we would demand the ability to know what every phone call costs before placing it.

If we don't even demand basic numbers, how in hell could we care what equations tell us. UTs point is valid and accurate. But too many people would rather let their eyes glaze over so that they need not know how many Americans died in iraq this month or even what that phone call costs.

The first because many don't care. The second because we don't care until the bill comes in - and then get angry.

I used my Calculus skills not too long ago...if I could only remember what for. And that was the most useless math class I ever took...or so I thought.

Remember that 63% of all statistics quoted in online forums are made up on the fly.

Who let the skank out of the closet again?!?!?! :D

I just have to point out that UT, the "terrible math student", got 1520 in the math half of his SAT's.

Interesting point, Kat.
I've taken classes where I struggled and didn't get a good grade, but down the road I had learned much more than I thought.
Other classes I breezed through with an A, but couldn't retain the info for use later on.
I think the student can lose perspective when they're in the thick of it.
Not surprised at UT's score, he seems to have everyone's number. ;)

To be accurate, 710 Math/620 Verbal but I do understand that this entitles me to nothing but an air of self-satisfaction. Wound up getting two Cs and a D in the required math courses in college (Calc 1, Calc 2, Math fundamentals)

I understood most of it, but really had no interest. What was I going to use it for?

So you didn't do your homework??

I was the same way, UT. Calc 1 C, Calc 2 F, Calc 2 B

But then, Adv Algebra A, Graph Theory A, Graph Theory II A

I'm a discrete math kinda guy. In 28 years of post college, I never needed to use The Calculus. Set Theory, Combinitorics, Logic, and Algebra rule my world.

It was easy to blow off uninteresting courses in 1973; at that time, college and CS were less competitive than now. I still got into CS grad school w/o good grades, they were taking warm bodies in 1977. Good for me that CS grad school was all interesting courses and project work.

Shopping for the truck at three dealers yesterday, I made heavy use of Integer Comparison Less Than. :D

I really struggled with math. I maintain that I was never taught in an engaging way or in any way that made sense to me, that brought understanding. With one exception, I loved the word problems, but that was about it. I really understood a great deal about geometry, patterns and sequence, through the process of learning to weave/ build on a multi harness loom. I like to think that kids are taught math in a broader way with more strategies to get to the abstract concepts, but maybe not. And the big thing is, that they're taught in a way that they can see the rationale and purpose.