Ecologically-friendly nuclear
 

Back in Mar of 2005, UT posted this Finally found the real numbers as provided by the NERC in a reliability report of bulk electricity for 2005. This pie chart defines fuel consumption for the MAAC region (which is PJM). Electric source for The Cellar is not dominated by nuclear as UT believes:

The Cellar gets juice from Excelon.
154.5 Mw wind power in PA and WV, owned by FPL and sold by Excelon.
Excelon produces 1619 megawatts of Hydro, 6,500 megawatts of coal, oil, and natural gas, and 129.7 million megawatt hours of Nu-clear. Unless my math sucks worse than I thought, that’s 15,046 Mw of Nuke.

In this area: (PECO).
Cromby~ 358 Megawatts, 2 units; 1 coal, 1 oil or natural gas.
Eddystone~ 1,359 Megawatts, 4 units; 2 coal, 2 oil or natural gas.
Schuylkill~ 175 Megawatts,1 unit; oil-fired – peaking
Philadelphia Distribution Center~1,078 Megawatts 38 natural gas and oil fired units at 11 locations in and near Philadelphia, 35 combustion turbine (CT) units at 10 sites in Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia Counties in Pennsylvania.
Also local Fairless Hills~ 60 Megawatts, 2 units; landfill gas or oil.

Conowingo~ 548 Megawatts, 11 units, hydro.
Muddy Run~ 1,071 Megawatts, 8 units, hydro. (Muddy Run is primarily used for peaking and load leveling. Excess system capacity is used to power motor/pumps during off peak hours to pump water from a lower reservoir into an upper reservoir.)

Limerick~ 1,200 net megawatts, 2 units, nuke. (power more than two million average American homes.)
Oyster Creek~ 636 net megawatts, 1 unit, nuke.
Peach Bottom~ 3186 net megawatts, 2 units, nuke.
Three Mile Island (unit #1)~ 850 net megawatts, 1 unit, nuke. (Damaged unit 2 is owned by someone else)

I’d say you’re good to go, UT. :lol:

4 months planning an "i told you so", the time to post it, link to the original text, oh the anticipation of that feeling of superiority... and then bruce has to come along and spoil it. some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed. :headshake

Given The Cellar's actual proximity to Limerick, UT should just be able to drag the plugs out the sliding glass door and stick them in the mud.

That's what I was talkin' 'bout... I say if you're within the planned evacuation zone of a nuke plant, and have test sirens that go off every month, you can call yourself nuke and be done with it. :D Although Exelon is planning a gas plant up around there last I looked.

It would be cool if we could harnass tw's insanity for good instead of evil.

Personally, I like some of his stuff. He's certainly more rational than most of the talking heads I see on MSNBC and, god-forbid, Fox. He also does his own research :rtfm: , something which puts him above Ann Coulter and ilk.

I wouldn't mind seeing a few TW matchups on some of those talk shows.

TW vs Robert Lutz - Vice Chairman, Product Developement and Chairman of GM North America :nadkick:

TW vs John Marburger - Director, White House Office of Science and Technology Policy

TW vs Sen Bill Frist

Rock on, TW! :thumb:

BTW, interesting tidbit. Development can be written as developement. Here I was thinking GM had screwed up again.

Right on Rich, don't for one minute sell TW short. He's no fool and he's right in that all the power produced goes into the grid like the ingredients of a casserole.
I'm just pointing out most of the power produced in the Cellars immediate area is non-fossil. The actual power the Cellar gets at any one time could be coming from Canada, so watch out for pages coming up in French. :eek:

Btw, if you want to have more money than Bill Gates, invent a practical way to store electricity. We could run the whole damn world on lightning.

Well, trapping and harnessing lightning would take large capacitors. One alternative would be attaching generators to 2 million hamsters on exercise wheels. The lightning would frighten the hamsters, causing the wheels to spin faster and generate more electricity. The advantages of this method is that it merely requires proximity to lightning and the effect would outlast the short burst of energy from the lightning itself. :nuts:

Now where's that DOE grant request form.....

Numerous natural gas plants were planned for UTs region. Local politics killed them all off. The plants were rather interesting in that they claimed 60% thermodynamic efficiencies. Most plants do only 35%. Limerick has even less thermodynamic efficiency - for safety reasons.

Meanwhile, if distance was a deciding factor, then Cromby (that burns oil, coal, and natural gas) and Montgomery County Recycling are the source of UTs electricity. IOW all of UTs electricity is then generated by fossil fuels. The next layer out includes Richmond, Schuylkill, Delaware, Eddystone, DRMI, Eagle Point, Camden Paper, Limerick, Burlington, Croyden, US Steel, Mercer. Going farther out, the third layer includes Transenergy, Gilbert, Lakewood, Oyster Creek, Edison, Werner, Sayreville, Glen Gardner, Martins Creek, Sherman Ave, Cumberland, Hope Creek, Salem, Deepwater, Delaware City, Allentown, Portland, AES, Harwood, Jenkins, Susquehanna, Montour, Sunbury, Three Mile Island, Safe Harbor, York, West Shore, Jackson, Muddy Run, Peach Bottom, Conowingo, and a few other fossil fuel plants whose names I am not familiar with.

Bottom line: to get significant nuclear generated electricity, UT must get electricity from the third (outermost) layer. Most of his electricity (if distance was a factor) comes from fossil fuel. The plants closest to his home - the first layer - are all fossil fuel. The second layer only has one nuclear power site - Limerick. In reality, nuclear only provides about 20% of his electricity.

To get non-fossil sources, one must go out to what I described as the third layer. Outside of the third layer are more coal plants, nuclear, natural gas, and wind power plants.

PJM now purchases and monitors power from sources in VA, WV, OH, IN, IL, and upper NY State. Dominion Power of VA is the latest addition to the PJM. Exelon also generates power on the Mississippi River, New England, and other places that are too far (electrically) to be considered power for the Cellar. Also not included in that list are power plants in places such as N Jersey that would really be providing power mostly for that region and NYC.

PJM has a bottlneck when it buys power from OH, IN, WV, etc. the interconnection is not very good. Just one reason why plants in MD (such as the nuclear plant at Calvert Cliffs are not included in the list of UT's electricity.

The chart is accurate for UTs electrical supplier because most of his closest generator plants are fossil fuel powered.

I would lose, hands down, in those talk shows. I cannot say something unless I first have sufficient supporting evidence. This thread is typical. Long ago remembered UT claiming his electricity was all nuclear. I had that above list of power plants. But that list alone was not yet sufficient information. A chart finally obtained from the NERC demonstrates UT's mistake. Numbers required to demonstrate that UT was only speculating - did not first learn the facts.

I don't talk like Rush Limbaugh: make half baked claims without numbers and supporting facts. Posts are longer - no sound bytes - when reasons for 'why' are also included. The 'Rush Limbaugh' technique is to keep running - keep changing the discussion - so that 'real world' facts, numbers, and other details never get presented. An effective propaganda technique that keeps one like me silent.

Some foolishly say, "Rush says what had to be said". They forget a Rush statement is 'quick and move on' so that research and numbers arrive too late. It takes time to first find the details behind a Rush Limbaugh statement, then find the real world details, and then organize those details so that eyes do not glaze over. Rush knows that many of us don't first wait for and demand numbers. Too many instead believe the first thing we are told. Exactly why propaganda and junk science reasoning are so effective.

It took about 4 months to find a chart for UT's electricity. In a Rush Limbaugh discussion, that chart would never be presented. Reality provided by numbers takes longer.

Political types, in verbal discussions, would run all over me. Too many people believe those who only provide 'sound bytes' - never provide the supporting facts. Propaganda promoters are good at sound bytes, half truths, propaganda, and changing the topic before details are sufficiently examined. But the devil is in those details. Same details also demonstrated Saddam's WMDs were not as the President claimed. As more numbers appeared, then those aluminum tubes were for cloning an Italian rocket called Medusa - not for processing uranium. Better to just claim uranium was from Niger, then out a CIA agent, then claim Saddam had an intercontinental missile system in development, then claim bio-chemical weapons, then claim Al Qaeda was working with Saddam, etc - so that numbers and real world facts never get presented. Lie after lie presented fast enough means the numbers and other details never get learned.

UT's electricity is not mostly nuclear. UT assumed otherwise because he knew Limerick existed. He did not even learn how Limerick electricity gets to his home. Limerick electricity must first pass through Cromby - a coal, oil, and natural gas plant- to get to UT. His electricity would only be nuclear if the multiple plants at Cromby first did not meet his electricity demands. Another fact he did not first learn.

It takes time to first learn the details. UT did not first learn the numbers. He assumed and then declared that all his electricity is nuclear generated. He used Rush Limbaugh logic. Even Lookout123 (routinely) chimes in (in classic Rush Limbaugh tradition) by posting insults; provides no numbers and no facts. One would think my name was Hilary.

I stand criticized for not providing the facts and numbers soon enough. To many, that would be sufficient for talking heads to win an argument. To a majority, only the first statement is accurate. It demonstrates why propaganda is so effective and why I would lose to those talking heads.

One more point...when you buy "wind generated" power, the power you get probably won't be actually be made by a wind generator(turbine) unless you're real close to the wind farm. Even then it's a variable supply depending on...well...the wind. :lol:
What you are buying is wind generated power to be slipped into the grid to replace some power that now won't be fossil fuel generated.
You're still doing a good thing, it's just globally or at least regionally rather than locally.

Cellar nuclear: Damn straight
 

Electricity is fungible. There's no practical way to know whether the electrons you're harnessing get their juice from the big nuke plant up the street, or the Conowingo dam or whatever.

However:

Power companies don't transmit power long distances if they don't have to. Limerick is an enormous plant and it's right in the Cellar's (and my) back yard. It stands to reason that the vast majority of the power running the Cellar (not to mention my own laptop) is coming from the nuclear plant. So unless you've got specific information otherwise, region-wide information (covering 50,000 square miles in 5 states and D.C.) simply doesn't refute that claim.

When you come home from work every day to a scene from the opening of _The Simpsons_, you know where your power is coming from.


As for natural gas, current prices make such plants unattractive propositions.

I like the interesting puffy, almost mushroom shaped clouds from the tops of the towers. I see them most days on the way to work.

nah, you strike me as more of a Mary than a Hillary.

Let's be fair R. 358 MW from Cromby, of which I was thankfully unaware, and 2400 MW from Limerick... probably nets out to the Cellar's non-peak-usage sources being about 87% nuclear, 13% coal/oil/gas. I regret the error.

Except that all 358 MW from Cromby and the power from Montgomery County Recycling center must be consumed first before Richmond, Schuylkill, Delaware, Eddystone, DRMI, Eagle Point, Camden Paper, Limerick, Burlington, Croyden, US Steel, and Mercer take up UTs load. Those other fossil fuel plants that would also contribute alongside Limerick were conveniently forgotten (if distance is a criteria). So now we have a number still somewhere at 20% nuclear.

Limerick power is provided through Cromby. Limerick only provides UT's power when Cromby is overloaded. That based upon distance as the criteria.

However electricity is more fungible. Therefore the chart at the start of this thread is more relevant. About 20% of UT's electricity from the grid is nuclear. Most of his electricity - by far the dominant amount - is fossil fuel. His nearest plants in all directions are not nuclear. His nearest electricity sources are all fossil fuel plants. His grid only provides 20% of its electricity from nuclear.

The point is that UT speculated only based upon an observation. He saw Limerick. He ignored the much closer Cromby. He then assumed all his electricity is nuclear by pretending those closer fossil fuel plants did not exist. And he did not first get the numbers. Again, he ignores a long list of power plants so as to claim Limerick as the primary electric source. Now we are getting to my point.

Selective reasoning. No numbers means the conclusion is based upon junk science reasoning. Then claiming only Limerick and Cromby exist in his neighborhood is another classic propaganda technique - half truths by omission of facts. These are Rush Limbaugh techniques.

Provided up top were real world numbers. About 20% of UTs electricity is from nuclear. He previously declared it was 100% because he did not obtain numbers, only made a quick observation (saw Limerick), and ignored other more relevant facts (such as the existence of Cromby and Montgomery County Recycling). By not learning the numbers up front AND by ignoring other relevant facts, UT presented personal speculation as fact.

UT is not the isolated example. Most of us did same to justify an illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq. History teaches that most of us will later deny we really supported that unjustified invasion. UT is only being used as an example of how so many of us think. We don't first demand irrefutable facts AND we often only listen to facts presented in a politically correct manner. Too many rationalize selectively - dominated by emotion rather than a quest for the numbers. Too often, we ignore the numbers so that eyes will not glaze over.

UT made a spectacular and erroneous assumption because he did not first learn the numbers - and other factors such as how the grid is wired. He did what so many of us do to become victims of the Rush Limbaugh types.

One trend that so often amazed me is how many call themselves computer experts and yet don't even know how electricity works. Or how many believe Listerine does something only because of television half-truths and how it feels in the mouth. We fix things by 'shotgunning' and then declare we know why the failure happened. We rationalize just as UT did to declare all his electricity as nuclear. No research. No numbers. Somehow we just know. That is what UT did when he declared his electricity as 100% nuclear and when he declared his electricity as 87% nuclear. Too often, we all do this junk science reasoning - which is why Rush Limbaugh types are so powerfully influential.

How on Earth does he do that?

If that were true, then why are most every new plant listed in the NERC coming online (for the Mid Atlantic and NY regions) using natural gas?

Because nobody wants to authorize a new nuclear plant.

That's the debil.

what is this fascination with rush limbaugh? limbaugh is just a schmo who takes his opinion, proof-texts to support it, and then presents it to everyone as if it were fact. then he insults anyone who disagrees with his view of things. over and over and over.

i don't really find that style of discussion to be very valuable. YMMV.

That is why his influence is so disturbing. Not because his contribution is valuable, but because it isn't.

If Cromby's distance counts, and "ignoring the much closer Cromby" is part of your reasoning, then you can't use the 20% figure which completely ignores distance. Do you see that?

Whoa! That's me. tw just described me! I always thought that because Listerine burns my mouth like Hell, it must be killing the germs in there, not just washing them away. Are you saying it doesn't kill the germs?

What is Montgomery County Recycling center? Are you refering to the Fairless Hills USS plant that burns the methane from Tullytown and Grows landfills?
Now I don't know how or where Limerick is tied into the grid so figuring the distance the juice travels is out. But other than Cromby which makes more than the Cellar needs, I don't see anything closer, physically, than Limmerick.
Just water vapor. Non-nukes can use cooling towers also, if they don't have a lake or river to provide cooling. ;)

Don't feel too bad about Cromby.

We're going to get lots of natural gas from Alaska as soon as we displace the critters and Colorado as soon as we displace the hippies. :lol:

Just think of all the natural gas that was, and still is, just burned off at the derrick because collecting it is more expensive at this point than just grabbing the oil underneath it.. :(

A guy I used to work with told me his Grandfather had a standpipe at the back edge of the yard he would light at night. Lit up the yard with a six foot flame and drew the insects away from the house. :mg:

When there's heavy cloud cover, sometimes the vapor from the cooling towers will extend to the cloud base, making it look like Limerick is the source of the whole thing. Occasionally there will be only one cloud, presumably because the other unit has been shut down. Very rarely is there none at all.

Random fact: While New Zealand is famously nuclear-free, they have a geothermal power station with a basically identical cooling tower.

UT - provided were three different ways to calculate your electricity sources. The first assumed all adjacent plants first provide your electricity. Second is to assume all nearby plants provide your electricity. Third is to assume electricity is fungible - that the entire grid provides your electricity. In each case, your electricity is no where near to 100% or 87% nuclear. By now, that should have been obvious.

Using the perspective of distance, or by assuming electricity is fungible: either way, your electric sources are predominately fossil fuel. Facts provided with numbers too large and one sided to challenge if using logic.

How many times can you just ignore the numbers and ignore other adjacent (and closer) fossil fuel plants? You ignore numbers when it is convenient? Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove love that type of reasoning. It explains why lies about weapons of mass destruction are believed and why The Lancet study of 98,000 dead Iraqis due to the American invasion is repeatedly denied (even after Schroninger's Cat spend so much time to explain it). Selective reasoning or simply ignoring inconvenient numbers? Which is it? Your electricity is not 100% or 87% generated by nuclear. At this point, the denial must be humor.

At about $15 per megawatt hour to produce electricity, a nuclear plant can only be profitable if oil prices rise AND if premiums for insurance (due to high risk) is carried by the Federal government. For those who believe in a free market, nuclear power (fission type) remains only marginally profitable.

Electrically MCR connects to the grid in Plymouth Meeting. I believe it is located adjacent the Blue Route.

Cromby is maybe half way between Limerick and the Cellar. To provide electricity, Limerick would connect to The Cellar using what appears to be a single 230,000 volt transmission line that first feeds Cromby using, in part, an abandoned railroad 'right of way'.

In reality, most of Limerick's electricity directly connects to maybe four 500,000 volt transmission towers headed east for places like Hatfield, Somerville, and N Jersey. Or on two 500,000 volt transmission lines that head west and south towards Peach Bottom and Muddy Run (a lake that stores electricity by pumping water into a reservoir). 500,000 volt transmission lines are PJM's backbone. IOW electricity from Limerick is particularly fungible - shared by all in the grid. This is also why (in part) so many electric generation companies (ie Florida Power and Light) wanted to build natural gas electric generators adjacent to these 500,000 volt backbones. They too could provide power to the entire grid (not just locally) from that location. In today's wholesale electric market, that location on the grid would be more profitable. They would not need only the Cellar region for customers.

Ah yes, the usual fact-based TW provides me with three different ways to calculate and all are completely logical and obvious. Despite the fact that they all produce wildly different results.

The only thing they have in common is that they prove me wrong. That's a nice logical and scientific agenda, close enough for the Cellar.

I was playing around with Google Earth, and traced the high-tension lines coming from Cromby. One set leads down to Barbadoes (sp?) Island near Norristown, where it links up with another plant of some sort - is this the recycling plant? - and then seems to head down the Schulykill towards the city. The other set goes across the county, links up with a much bigger set from Limerick, and winds up at a substation on North Wales Rd near Rt 73.

There used to be a generator at Barbadoes. Also a PECO training facility. I believe both have been shut down. After that there was a substation; that caught fire a few years ago. I'm not sure if it's in use at all now.

Limerick sends what appears to be a smaller (230Kv) transmission line down to Cromby. Cromby then sends power to Philadelphia and to North Wales. The line to Philadelphia would pass through a switchyard in Barbadoes (I believe it was once a generator station and is now only a training facility). That line from Cromby also powers substations in the vicinity of The Cellar.

Limerick does not connect to North Wales. The backbone goes farther north to Whitpain and Soudertown where the backbone feeds NJ.

Another switchyard in that Cromby line would be Plymouth Meeting. The Mongomery County Recycling Center would be somewhere adjacent to this switchyard; located somewhere as the Blue Route intersects Ridge Pike and the PA Turnpike.

If power on this line is headed east, then Cromby would be the source. If power on this line is headed west, then Richmond, Eddystone, Schuykill, Delaware, and other fossil fuel only plants would be the electrical source. Montgomery County Recycling being closest to The Cellar.

Meanwhile, if those many natural gas turbines had been built (they would have been closer to The Cellar than Limerick), then still those generators would have been major providers to the backbone where electricity is more fungible. Florida Power and Light wanted generators that could sell power more easily to the entire grid.

BTW, the market leader in free market energy is, I believe, PJM. I suspect PJM sets the standards for responsible grid management and for free market energy sales. How big is PJM monitoring? They even monitor electricity in the Chicago region and in VA's Dominion Power. PJM is also the national grid that stopped the blackout from proceding all the way to FL. Stopped it from the west and then stopped it from the north. No wonder better utilities such as Dominion Power want to join PJM.

Meanwhile, the closest source of electricity for The Cellar are fossil fuel. The grid only provides 20% of electricity from nuclear. Now maybe those numbers will increase slightly when Excelon takes over Salem and Hope Creek nuclear reactors. I don't know how unreliable those nuclear plants are, but they are considered some of the most dangerous in the US. IOW I don't know how often those plants have been producing electricity. Reports on problems in those plants have been sketchy and vague. But at least one plant has extremely serious vibration problems (that may require a major refurbishment). Maybe those plants could push the Cellar's nuclear power consumption up a few percentage points?

I see that line now, it masquerades as railroad track part of the way.

But I also see 6 high voltage lines going directly from Limerick to N. Wales?

What streets? Power lines from Cromby and Limerick would have to cross somewhere in the vicinity of the Perkiomen River. Haven't been in that region so I am not sure where.

They cross the Perkiomen Creek just a nudge south of Graterford.

Found those power lines on a Collegeville Quadrangle geographical map. Lines from Limerick and Cromby cross the Pekiomen together and run parallel until they cross Route 113. Then the Limerick wires cross over the Cromby wires to head west; to connect to the rest of the PJM backbone. Cromby wires continue NW to North Wales.

The satellite photos show two Cromby wires joining 6 Limerick wires and then after a while 2 wires head NE while 6 wires head SE to North Wales.

Are you two seriously arguing about power lines ? :eyebrow:

The magic of the internet.

You're looking at the transmission lines. The substation south of Limerick also seems to have some distribution lines associated with it.

The discussion is asking how fungible is electricity. UT has been citing satellite photographs of lines I just cannot see in these photos. For example, provided is the switching yard for Limerick. Limerick power plant in upper half. Switch yard for transmission lines in lower right:
Limerick
How many power lines enter this switch yard? Well I don't see all the power lines. But I do see structures that terminate those lines. I count at least nine lines. Four to the backbone to the east. Two from the nuclear power plant. One to Cromby. Two from the backbone from the west. Can anyone actually see all those lines? I can't even when zeroing in on switch yard at best resolution, how does one see transmission lines?
Limerick switch yard

Look closely at this picture of where two Limerick lines and one Cromby line cross the Perkiomen Creek:
Perkiomen Crossing

An uppermost line (appears as three lines) from Limerick crosses over a north/south dam. The next line down crosses over the lower edge of that same dam - line barely visible. The southern lines that appear as two wires is the Cromby line. The Cromby line passes through and connects to a substation.

This is best visibility possible. How from these crude pictures can anyone say which lines maintain which direction? One of the two Limerick transmisson lines is barely visible.

Now we refer to the topographical map of that same region. Apparently only one Limerick line (the less visible one) and one Cromby line existed back then (1983).


What I remember of N Wales is that three 230Kv lines enter. The backbone lines from Limerick are 500 Kv. One enters N Wales from the north to connect eastward; two 230 Kv lines enter from the south to connect southward and westward. Only the wire to the SW connects to Cromby - whose outgoing lines are also 230 Kv. IOW 500 Kv lines from Limerick do not connect to N Wales.

Good luck seeing both lines entering from the south. None of the three would be 500 KV lines that would be the PJM backbone and that connect from Limerick. But again, how could one tell from best detail arial photo of N Wales switch yard:
N Wales switch yard


So how fungible is electricity when Limerick Nuclear power connects mostly to backbone lines that go elsewhere. Meanwhile, Cromby, a fossil fuel plant, provides direct connections to substations on the Perkiomen Creek, in N Wales, and on substations near the Cellar along the Schuykill River. Substations around the Cellar have direct connections to Cromby via 230 Kv lines - not to Limerick via 500 Kv lines. Even though the grid is only 20% nuclear, it appears that The Cellar gets most all its electricity from a fossil fuel (oil, coal, and natural gas) plant. I don't see how UT could count lines nor say where those lines connect from satellite photos. The best photos I can find don't even show all the lines nor can tell which type of transmission lines they are. But we know from those satellite photos that only three lines terminate in N Wales - which would be one from Cromby and none from Limerick. Even the number of lines UT says are going to N Wales does not agree with satellite photos of the N Wales substation. I don't see where his claims or his numbers are justified by any ariel photos.

With Google Earth, you get a higher resolution and color! And I get that on a 1600x1200 20.1" LCD monitor....

The Limerick-to-Cromby line looks like it comes off the upper left of the Limerick plant as shot in the first image you present. They don't enter the switch yard.

Where crossing the Perk, the lines from Cromby are the bottom two. They are slightly brighter than the others.

Your final image is of a North Wales switch yard, but I was actually referring to a much, much larger switch on North Wales Road. this one You can see 9 wires entering it from the west. It sure looks like the Cromby wires lead to your small substation and the Limerick wires lead to this massive one off N. Wales Rd. The Topo maps seem to indicate the Cromby wires as a black dotted line and the Limerick as purple dotted.

Just get Google earth already, it's free.

That larger switch yard is Whitpain - a major hub on the backbone that transmits power to Soudertown, Allentown area, and North Jersey. You should see four major transmission lines from Limerick to Whitpain. Beneath or adjacent to those transmisson lines may be a lower voltage distributon line that uses the same right of way to distribute power to local substations. Cromby has no direct connection to Whitpain.

Major hubs in the grid are obvious. For example, those traveling north of Flemington on Route 202 observe another major hub on the right as transmission lines from many directions converge on that switch yard. Electricity through these switching points would be quite fungible.

The nine lines into Whitpain are probably 6 in, 3 out, then, because three of those lines lead north roughly following the turnpike. Two head south... oh hell, here's what it looks like in Google Earth already; my notes in light blue. Sorry for everyone else still reading the thread.

http://cellar.org/2005/whitpain.jpg

The road with the red line on it is N. Wales Rd. The blue double line is the Pennsylvania turnpike.

It's kinda fun tracing these things out with Google Earth. G.E. looks a little better than the above image, which is compressed JPG for the purpose of showing here.

Transmission lines are three wires; one for each phase. In the switching yard, all three conduits are equally spaced in sets of three. Those six wires from Limerick are really just two 500 Kv tansmisson lines from Limerick. The other two lines from Limerick taking a more northernly path are just above. All four transmission lines from Limerick enter in the center left. Other transmission lines exit Whitpain in the upper right to continue north and east.

I believe a lower voltage transmission line leaves center right headed north adjacent to the turnpike. Destination N Wales. That would be one of the two 230 Kv transmission lines that enter N Wales from the south.

Updating this thread, in which we argued over transmission lines four years ago --

Exelon has announced that they are shutting down the Cromby Generating Station (and Eddystone, probably xoB's provider) on May 31 2009.

NOW how much of my power will be nuclear?

Why those pricks! For 24 years they've been dumping gritty crap on my car, and now I'm retiring, they're shutting down.:rant:

Who says we can't conserve our way out of nuclear power argument...
This is the full article, except the pic which is out of google images...

Attachment 45016

Forbes
William Pentland
8/1/13

Duke Pulls Plug On Planned Nuclear Project in Florida
(Ummmm but then, Vermont is a leading producer of solar panels in the US :rolleyes:)

OTOH, I was just starting my career when the 5-Mile Island event occurred,
and it influenced my thinking (negatively) about nuclear power ever since.
At times, I have to admit that maybe nuclear power is ultimately the way
the world will have to go, what with environmental pollution, global warming, etc., etc.,
But still on balance, I think doing away with nuclear power may be the best decision.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Yet, Th-fueled reactors remain fascinating. The fuel itself is less bother and more common, and it's antiproliferative nuclear power too. Sounds like it can drive anything that needs nuke power.

The most recent wrinkle seems to be a mainly-thorium, some-plutonium fuel rod, not only consuming the plutonium but using it as an alpha-source to bombard the thorium, which is thought (experimental assessment pending) to work quite as well as hitting it with thermal neutrons to light it and keep it lit. If I understand the technicalities.

details ... details

What happens when neutrons get cold? Do they emit darkness?

They ask the proton to go get them a blanket.


And the proton's like, "Seriously? I've been at work all day, you've just been orbiting around the house and watching soap operas. Now you want me to wait on you?"

And the neutron's all, "What happened to chivalry? You're not the particle I bonded with."


And then they split, and that's how fission works kids!

Well, the big new diff in this study reactor up in Norway is that the first method considered for Th-fuel fission was "we need a neutron source" to bombard the thorium, making it U233 -- a short half life and lots and lots of hot, consuming the thorium, decaying readily itself, and turning the steam turbines. Now they're trying the same but using alpha particles, this being what plutonium mostly spits, and plutonium is alloyed in the thorium fuel rods for the purpose. They may be making specific use of Pu240's high rate of spontaneous fission here. Pu240 seems a nuisance in bomb making; Pu239 is much more cooperative for waiting around in an arsenal, but 240 is more immediately useful generating power.

Part of the "experimental results pending" is that after running the fuel rods for a goodish while, a few years if memory serves, they're going to pull the rods and analyze them -- to see if they're ending up with what they expect, I gather. And what all that will mean to the business of nuclear power -- what if anything they might need to do differently from the use or reprocessing of enriched-uranium rods.

It's not the alpha from the plutonium that will make the Thorium viable. Alpha's only good for making Helium.