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Originally Posted by mrnoodle
Happy isn't the word. Relieved that someone actually said it out loud with a (relative) minimum of riders, yes.
So what's the next question? Your opinion and mine are poles away from each other; if everything is relative, then we each have to agree that the other's viewpoint is equally valid. Because of the nature of our debate, that's impossible. It would make a wormhole or something. So relativism has just died from acute cognitive dissonance, and that puts into question your assertion that there can be no absolute right or wrong.
aspirin. need aspirin
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Heh, relax. You're acting as if this is a debate that can be won or lost.
For one thing, relativism is a rejection of absolutes, not an adherence to the idea that EVERYTHING is absolutely equal. That's not the same thing at all. My belief that there isn't a cosmic Right And Wrong Ordained By God and your belief that there is such a concept are not wholly incompatible, depending on how we act upon those beliefs.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that the Golden Rule, however it may be phrased, is a uniquely Christian concept. You'd be hard pressed to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_Reciprocity">find a religion</a> that _doesn't_ incorporate some form of the Golden Rule. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" makes sense to me whether it's Jesus Christ saying it or Floyd the Barber.
So, from my perspective, if I choose to live my life according to that concept (be beneficial to others whenever I can, be good, don't mash people's hands with ball-peen hammers, let others do their thing if they'll let me do mine) because I feel it is the right way to live and is beneficial under the common social contract, and if _you_ choose to live according to that concept because God Wants It That Way, does it really _matter_ in the long run which of our motivations is correct?
Not really. There will be disagreements on some issues, but for the most part, we're going to be treating others the same way.
So I am quite capable of thinking "I do not believe in God. Mr. Noodle does. I believe he is wrong about that, and that it's silly to believe such things, but _it's not my place to try to force him to STOP believing_. That belief isn't directly harming anyone, he isn't harming anyone, and he's not pushing his beliefs on ME, so if it works for him, more power to him, and I'll live my life MY way and hope he sees the truth someday."
You are (hopefully) capable of thinking the opposite: "I believe in God. vsp does not. I believe he is wrong about that, and that it's silly not to believe in God, but he has free will. He's not harming anyone else, and he's not pushing his beliefs on ME, so if it works for him, more power to him, and I'll live my life MY way and hope he sees the truth someday."
Not so hard, is it? You don't have to agree with me, just grant me the right to live a "flawed" lifestyle. You can believe that your own beliefs are true without believing that they're 100%, infallibly, undeniably true and that all other belief systems are therefore inherently wrong, right? That there's even a trifle of a chance that the other guy could be right?
Because I can do that. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't PROVE that God does not exist; I could be wrong. I don't think so, but it's a possibility that I have to consider. Therefore, can I rag on others for believing? Nope... unless they want to restrict _my_ behavior based on _their_ religious concept of right and wrong.
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You're saying that there could be an absolute right and wrong, but we're incapable of discerning it. That's even worse. What would be the point of anything? Not wanting someone else to exert their will on me is one thing. Denying that any standard exists except that which I accept for myself is another. If there *is* an absolute "right" then we are bound by it whether we accept it or not.
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But if we do not know what that absolute "right" is, how can we judge our actions accordingly as to whether we're meeting that standard?
If you do not take the Bible or other religious tome on pure faith, you cannot "know" whether any one religion or other philosophy's "right" is actually correct.
So you can spend your whole life worrying about whether you're getting it right or not, or you can just shrug and live your life the best you can according to your best judgement of what is right and what is wrong.
Works for me.