[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

None of the leaders of any of the middle eastern countries will take a cohesive stand against terrorism until they see that it's not going to fly anymore. Iraq is supposedly going to be the model for the new way of doing things in that region.

Yeah, remember the "Axis of Evil" speech, Iraq, Iran and North Korea, right? Pick one from that list that doesn't have a functioning nuclear program? No, no, don't tell me. Let us all guess. So the model *I* see is get your nuclear sh*t together and you will gain sufficient respect from the US that they'll (we'll) send in the diplomats before we send in the Marines. You're seeing this unfold right now in both N Korea and in Iran. Nice stabilizing precedent Mr President.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Other countries' leaders are going to view the new government as a US-controlled puppet (a notion fueled by American and European media -- thanks guys) rather than a healthy change.

With. Good. Reason. I will concede, no, celebrate the fact that Saddam's reign was as awful, heinous and inhuman as can be imagined and that *ANY* change is a move up, maybe many moves up. That in no way diminishes the truth of the statement that the Iraqi people and indeed most people in the Middle East will "view the new government as a US-controlled puppet". 'Cause it is.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

However, the citizens of those countries (and the citizens of Iraq) are more concerned with their day to day lives. It is those people who will be convinced first,

How?? We're in an impossible position! We get full credit (extra credit) for all the bad stuff that happens, and, if we're smart give all the credit for anything good that happens to the Iraqis.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

and the change will have to work its way up to the leadership. They have these things called free elections now.

Let me tell you something. Democracy, however fine or faulty a system of government it may be, can not be imposed from the outside. It is the flowering of an internal drive. "I command you to be democratic!" is absurd. If obeyed, what does that make us? What does it make the people of Iraq?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

why are we so fucking worried about what a bunch of despots and dictators think?

Listen closely and I'll tell you. Here's a hint: look at the next quote box, your own words.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The issue at hand is the Iraqi people, and they are enjoying freedom that they've never had thanks to US intervention. Everyone in the region who sees it is eventually going to want a taste for themselves, thus putting political pressure on their respective goverments.

What is it that these people are supposed to want? Our conquering might? Cause that's what's making the headlines, top of the pops, number one with a bullet, and likely to stay there for the foreseeable future. Are they supposed to want our, what, our culture, or our system of government? Like they haven't seen that on display now for, hmm, 200 plus years and they're all of a sudden gonna have the atomic munchies for the "American Way"?

We're supposed to worry about what a bunch of despots and dictators think because our actions are seen by the people of those countries and by the bad leaders. How can we be aloof and aggressive to only the leaders and not to the people? Do we want to have the reputation for just being a "government toppler"? "Looky repressed citizens of ______! We'll save you from your government so you can be like us." Which is to say, what? An aggressive pre-emptive war making superpower? Bah.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The theory in itself is simple. The execution of it isn't simple at all.

Under-fucking-statement of the century. And made immeasuably more difficult and unlikely by the actions of this administration. They "say" they're bringing democracy to Iraq (well, they say a lot of shit, don't they?), but what they *do* is different. And when I meet a man that says one thing and does a different thing, what am I to believe? His actions or his words? What do you do, mrnoodle? How do you resolve that cognitive dissonance? Which stake do you uproot and move toward the other? Do you move your memory of the words toward the actions? Or do you edit your understanding of the facts and disregard the data that mismatches the transcripts? Better question--what do you do when this happens a second time, or many times? When do you decide to disregard the words and rely on the actions?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I'm determined to wear you down on this point: A Free Iraq Is A Good Thing, Even If The Hated USA Does The Freeing.

Those are some pretty big concepts--too big for my small smooth brain. Would you help me with some definitions, please? Like what is "Free" and what do you mean by "Iraq"? Here's where I have a problem--how is it a Free Iraq if we're there against the wishes of so many? Who's "free" now? Where's the autonomy, the sovreignity? There's precious little of it in Iraq.

It is in some ways easier to say that Iraq, as a nation, was freer, possesed of more autonomy under Sadaam than it is today. Is "freedom" the same as anarchy? Would you support that? I don't think so. I don't support it. What make a government legitimate and effective and enduring is the consent of the governed. That was conspicuously absent during Saddam's time, although it was effective and enduring from all accounts. That consent is likewise absent in Iraq today. Being wrestled to the mat and made to cry uncle because your boot is on my neck is NOT an expression of my consent.

There will be disagreements in every population, but the oil on those troubled civil waters is a common belief in the rule of law. Law that applies roughly equally to the governors as well as to the governed. This too is absent in Iraq today, just as it was under Saddam.

The most tragic casualty of this misbegotten adventure is our loss of any pretense to the moral high ground. There is MUCH hypocrisy in the difference between what we say is right and what we do. That is sad, and it has reached unprecedented levels of shamefullness.

I hold MY government to a higher standard. Harder, hell yes. But if we're so superior that we're entitled to haze Iraq into our fraternity of democracy, then such standards should apply.