[bargalunan]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You misunderstood me. I mean: When listing all the countries that the US brought freedom and democracy to, don't forget Europe. I'm not talking about WW2. I know it has been too long to expect leftover gratitude for that. I'm talking about the cold war and the events of the last 20 years.

Quite difficult to understand each other, maybe because we disagree somehow.

I wasn’t talking about WW2 neither. I have written my point of view about gratitude in the thread “why do we hate French again”.

About cold war and after in Europe, I think it’s the same logic that what I said in my first post (most of time interests versus URSS, and to control “free” countries with puppets).
Why do you imagine Italia, Spain (before Zapatero), Poland !!!! (I’m dreaming, wake me up), send troupes to Irak despite their folks are opponents to this war. Italia has been under US control since WW2. Former Soviet republics under US control are weakening Russia.
Divide in order to control !
Meanwhile I think that most of Eastern Europe people felt really better once they were no more under Soviet domination despite the transition is difficult.

“State institution needs war for its wellbeing” (author ?).
“I would welcome every war so much I think this country (US) needs one” Theodore Roosevelt 1897
Thus I think a threat is useful for a State. Of course not for folks.

We can also consider that THANKS TO his Soviet opponent, US increased their territory and economical domination. So did URSS in the first part, they lost the second one. And the terror balance was useful to perpetuate these conquests on both sides. It’s my opinion : In fact I think that, because of common interests US and SU were the world best allies during this period ! Look at the results, not at what politicians say.
Finally US won Cold War against URSS.

PS : if I was making war I wouldn’t chose the same symbol as my enemy :
US plane Corsaire : http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgur...lr%3D%26sa%3DG
SU plane L11 : (bottom of page) : http://users.belgacom.net/avion1/avion1/80.html#1362
US tank : Sherman M10 : http://www.photoway.com/fr/dest/NORM02_34.html
SU tank : KV1 (bottom of page) : http://worldwartwo.free.fr/v%E9hicul...20I/KV%201.htm

And after cold war, there were no more excuse to present to US folk in order to motivate other conquests. Perhaps it’s the main reason that made this time quite cool ? They took time to find a new threat : Muslim terrorism. Petrol is a visible economical purpose, maybe not the only one.
PS : Some Muslims leaders, at least some Arabian leaders, are also glad to be pointed out as powerful enemies. They finally can be unified. (but they do against US or Western Countries)

I could discuss with you about Europe if you show me more precise examples (who, when, how ?) in order to develop your idea.

Bring freedom and democracy :
Democracy : in order to be controlled by school, medias, and chose between two identical candidates ? (as in US, France…)
It can be seen like a kind of more subtle and stable dictatorship.
Freedom : Nobody is more slave than someone feeling free without being so (Goethe).

I’ve found Star Wars 2 and 3 excellent in showing how a democracy can give birth to a dictatorship :
You look like a good democrat (Palpatine) waiting for your hour and wanting to be a dictator, you need an army that obey without thinking but that your folk would refuse :
Create, use or strengthen an existing problem (separatists, terrorists) --> Use the full powers given legally by the parliament in promise you’ll defend fatherland and give them back after the problem is resolved (better when you buy senators before) --> Bring the solution (clones army) --> eliminate your former friends and actual enemies (Jedi) in accusing them of betrayal --> transform the Republic in an Empire under general applause --> eliminate your actual enemies and former friends (separatists) --> keep the power as a life emperor under terror when you’re the last one. --> Be careful of your pupil !

“Tell them the truth, they won’t believe you !”……

If fiction looks like reality, maybe it’s because reality looks like fiction !

For example I wouldn’t feel me safe if US were victim of a bacteriological attack, alleged terrorist, that would officially allow US Army to take the power. I read that during 911’s events US army took control of a bacteriological lab : Fort Detrick (Maryland), officially it is a medical lab. It was the only military base evacuated this day. True info ? ??

Originally Posted by Undertoad

And the responsibility.

If that could be true, I would be really glad. I used to agree.
Responsibility to sign protocols of Tokyo, to wait for ONU decisions before bombing Irak…

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Right, except for the "lost the election" part. The vote re-counters in Florida continued counting for the hell of it even once the Supreme Court told them the results would be ignored. They determined that even after the recount, Bush did in fact win Florida.

I can’t find info about that ?!

Bye