Don't have time for a thorough read right now, but just hopping in reall quick on the last page. Don't even know where the conversation has meandered, so here goes my "broken record" . . .
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rkzenrage
CHOICE
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Okay, choice. Does it occur in the brain? (And by "brain" I mean shorthand for whatever equipment we have that performs this function.) Is the "brain" a physical object? Then, the brain must follow the laws of physics, whether we fully understand them or not, right? Unless there is some "magical" influence which grants humans special excemption from the rules which govern every other particle of energy/matter in the universe.
The actions of our constituent parts must be determined by these rules - unless we are magical in some way. Neurology, Psychology, etc. - they describe the higher level functions of organized energy/matter, the top layer of function. But, the energy/matter they deal with cannot ignore the fact that it is governed by physics. You can't ignore one in favor of the other, and I'm not doing that. I'm saying physics is underneath everything, and physics means things are determined, whether we understand how they are determined or not. And we don't understand it, but we can't ignore it either. We are physical objects - unless you believe that we are magical beings endowed with the ability to defy the laws of nature. We are physical objects. Does that make me think less of myself? Does that make me feel that I am not in control of "myself"? Of course not, because I am operating within the framework of the human "operating system" - which includes everything we are able to percieve about the world as we know it. It doesn't mean I can't be aware of the fact that humans are
just another part of the world as we know it.
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Now, many things in this are open to debate. For starters, if I were reading this, I would say my whole argument is too "Newton-esque" and discuss the relationship between conciousness and "reality" as relates to the emerging synergy between science and ancient spirituality.
Of course, I am simply discussing (in this thread) a tiny part of the subject - I really haven't moved beyond the opening line, but people seemed to struggle with that one basic concept so much that I got dragged down into a silly debate.
Some things are intelligently debatable, some things aren't.