[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You called Afghanistan Vietnam here, after one day of bombing

UT, you amaze me with how your eyes glaze over when thoughts are longer than a soundbyte. You even confuse 'lessons from Vietnam' with 'what is Vietnam'. Or do you do this only to argue?

You cite a post that accurately warned of consequences in Afghanistan as learned in Vietnam and as Colin Powel was so careful to avoid in Kuwait. One overlooked point is soundbyted:

However now that we went in with all guns blazing, we ... have a very limited time to get those murders. We must now succeed in weeks or suffer long term consequences.

Well we are now suffering those long term consequences. For example, bin Laden lives because - well it was predicted back in Oct 2001. Taliban has retaken half of Afghanistan and is growing in popularity. And somehow we even ignored the strategic objective - and are therefore bogged down in two wars that we cannot win (using current leadership that ran from rabbit hole to rabbit hole).

How sophisticated were we? We entered with guns blazing and then stopped when it was time to commit.

What matters now is how quickly we resolve our objectives - either the capture of Al Qaeda or the replacement of the Taliban government by responsible, third party Afghanistans.

Having used a conspicuous and flagrant response, we have now severely limited time to resolve the crisis. That big show better have solve[d] the problem up front. Unfortunately the response reeks too much of a VietNam type mentality - where every intelligence service said there were no targets worth attacking - but we bombed anyway.

So instead we bombed Tora Bora rather than send in troops. Bin Laden was saved by Washington politicians who used bombing rather than send in ground troops. Just another Vietnam lesson lost. Leaders who would not even send in Americans to get bin Laden until some CIA agents did it on their own initative - without orders. Deja Vue Vietnam.

UT, did you even understand what was posted there? Even in Afghanistan, we violated lessons from Vietnam. Therefore bin Laden lives. Perspective without Pictures

Our leadership cannot see the bigger picture or even provide leadership. A leader would have returned to Washington rather than fly from rabbit hole to rabbit hole, indecisive, until suddenly while safely in Nebraska, he realized he was not being presidential. This is a decisive leader? No. This is also the leadership that drives moderates to support extremist positions.

Posted on 11 September and referenced in your citation. Notice the accuracy of that five year old post.

Emotion, especially right now, will create disasters larger than anything small like a WTC collapse. It is time to start taking stock of who are the extremists, who are the moderates, and who really is the enemy. IOW now more than ever is the time to start thinking dry, boring, and logical. Now is the time for leaders to act more as leaders.

Instead bin Laden lives simply because we did not have the leadership to get in, get the job done, and get out. Somehow the strategic objective got lost and therefore so did an exit strategy. Above quote was posted 12 September 2001. Somehow we instead blamed and attacked Saddam a year later because, even in The Cellar, too many did not take a "dry, boring, and logical" approach. Review responses back then. Posted was not popular. But the warnings were accurate.

"Mission Accomplished". Notice how early on the leadership vacuum in America was identified by simply using facts. Notice warnings traceable to the lessons from Vietnam. Deja Vue Vietnam because the lessons of history were not learned - including an essential need for a strategic objective.

The lessons of Vietnam were violated in Afghanistan. Tora Bora is a classic example of lessons not learned and that "85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management".