[kaleidoscopic ziggurat]

Originally posted by Xugumad

That's the whole point. There was no palestinian state, just a lot of often nomadic settlers and arabs occupying that land. As they had no government but instead preferred their way of life, somebody simply took their land away and gave it to somebody else. Those other people then started arriving and pushed out the 'natives', often using extremely violent measures.

wasn't the ottoman empire controlling that area of the world for a while? its not as if palestine was peaceful and doing alright before european intervention... being right in the fertile crescent it is a hot piece of property. who owns the right to any particular piece of land? the guy who has the biggest gun, apparently. it isn't something i agree with but that seems to be the way it is, non?

Palestinians are being wiped out the same way Native Americans were killed. Without global media coverage and the necessity of Israel to keep the US happy so they can get more tanks, planes, and nuclear weapons, they'd have wiped out all of the Palestinians long ago. Instead, they lead a stealth war on them - see also the slave-like treatment comment I made earlier.

i don't feel that comparison is accurate... native americans were a thousand years behind the europeans and had nowhere to go. what do you think... should we give a giant chunk of north america back to the natives?

i don't think that would be such a bad idea for certain areas... up here in canada there is always a lot of talk about quebec seperatism. sometimes the point is brought up that the northern portion of the province is nearly entirely populated by cree. would they also be allowed to have their own nation state? quebec would not allow that, given the amount of natural resources that could be exploited in the region.

hey if i had a magic wand i'd go around granting land to whoever can live on it while remaining in harmony with their surroundings. i'd dump the bad americans and their lifestyle of rape & pillage into the ocean, or the depths of space.

What nationality were Washington, Jefferson, Adams? Oh, that's right. They had no country - they took it upon themselves to free their land from the oppression of someone who had no right to tell them what to do.

yeah, and now what is america notorious for? oppression. telling other countries what to do, ruthlessly raping the earth, profit at any costs...

What a remarkably enlightened approach. National boundaries mean nothing, you can just grab whatever you need, all because the Britain/US axis decided to simply 'start' a state in the middle of a place where they had no business meddling with, and then provided those people with weapons and money.

You don't seem to understand: The Israelis had no business being there. None. Whatsoever. If somebody started a 'state' in my backyard, all of my neighbours and yours truly would be out there RIGHT NOW to kick him out. And no, it doesn't matter that Mr. Jackson down the street told him that my yard was a great place to put up a tent and gave him a weapon. Which he then used to shoot me with. DUH. And the fact that he shot me when I tried to kick him out WOULD STILL BE WRONG.

so is there some particular year in which boundaries should have been solidified? the entire area was fluid around the time of WWI and the fall of the ottomans if i'm not mistaken... i wouldn't sit here and say that what the brits/US folks did is RIGHT but that's the situation, and at this point, they've got the land. no one's going to uproot them now. israelis have been without a homeland for hundreds of years, and suddenly they inherited their old one. i'd be lying if i said i didn't respect the hebrew meme and its ability to remain true over the years.

Welcome to Generalizations 101, students. Please pick a seat.
Come on. You should know that the violent extremists only make a relatively small portion of the Palestinian populace. The vast majority are people who would just like to live their lives without being 'detained' randomly, without being banned from traveling, without having all of their products and exports taxed highly to prevent them from making a living, without being spied upon and assassinated by the Mossad for daring to speak out against Israel, and without being kicked by children and teenagers in the middle of the street because you are about 70, female, and an Arab. LOW LOW LOW?

Yes, terrorism is LOW LOW LOW, but most Palestinians DO NOT ENGAGE IN IT. The worst 99% of Palestinians do is throw stones at well-armoured Israeli soldiers. Those soldiers then shoot and kill the kids who throw the stones. LOW LOW LOW? Ah, double standards.

i am not entirely without compassion... like i stated, it is a terrible situation for both sides. yes, violent extremists are not the majority... yet hate is taught as far back as in the womb. is it another case of the few ruining it for the many? i wonder if they'd be able to live in harmony without the religious aspects of the problem.

Right. Sit back and watch the slaughter, whilst Russia etc. continue providing the Palestinians with weapons, and while the US happily continues shipping tanks, planes, and other amusing tools to Israel. Why exactly does the US do that with Israel, and nobody else? Why does more than half of US foreign aid go to Israel? Why does the US artificially keep the state of Israel alive?

Sure, sit back and watch. And whoever loses is a cry-baby. Jesus, do you even KNOW what you're talking about?

oh sorry, what -should- i be doing? go join the peace corps? protest israeli action in the area? deny the holocaust?

obviously US interests in israel are due to the strong jewish presence in that country... i don't think i need to explain the nature of that situation.

with respect to the cry-baby comment, i feel there is a certain validity to the situation... israel was created as a nation state... later it was invaded -- hostile military action on all fronts. not only did they defend their new land, but they pushed back the invaders into their own territory. when you begin a military engagement of that sort maybe you should think about your people living in the territories right near the contested lands. i think it was gracious enough of israel to give the sinai back. the rest -- too bad. decisions were made at a high level and those people had to live with the consequences.

How melodramatic. I am sure the thousands of US soldiers suffering from Gulf War syndrome, and their occasionally deformed and crippled babies would feel differently. How many people had to die and suffer what were ultimately US oil and Israeli security interests?

If this misinformation and 'oh well shit happens' attitude continues, God help us all.

that's the first i've heard of gulf war syndrome... my understanding is that the war was a lot tougher on the iraqi people, which is terribly unfortunate. i'm of the mind that it's about time that US got off its oil kick, so it is particularly bad that bush is in power now. oil is just another one of the elements of american crapocracy. oh well. can't change that right now either.

'oh well shit happens' is a better attitude for someone with his own problems on this side of the ocean who has absolutely no influence or power to change events or mold history. well, better than a frustrated bleeding-heart position that really solves little. if you have some magical thing a person can do that can ease the tension in the middle east, by all means, share it. the world would be better for it.

i'm no brilliant political analyst... i don't claim to be an expert on the issue. we're having a discussion -- i'm not trying to win favours or make people switch sides in some hypothetical battle of wits. honestly, if you know more about this issue, do more than simply negate what i speak of... state your opinion. i assume from your comments that you feel the israeli nationstate should simply dissolve and the jews should go back to wandering? please clarify..