The Cellar - View Single Post

10-31-2001, 05:31 PM

don't forget the PFLP either.

people support them because their leaders tell them to.

their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. they lose in the end. when you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. they seem to not recognize this. blind leading the blind. the funny thing is, i used to be totally completely sided with the palestinians. "oh, israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. i would never argue that israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. i personally think they have shown great restraint - i've not once heard of israeli soldiers grabbing some palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what i saw some palestinians doing to israeli soldiers last october 13.

re: the debate and emotions and all that stuff: first of all, the "flames" in signature refers to a love interest that spoiled and is taken from a faith no more song. has nothing to do with arguing, the cellar, etc. second, i think if you read back, my arguments are quite clear and are supported with evidence. emotion does play a part in my writing, but more in the sense that i try to stir it up - human beings feel, and they should. ask any of my friends - i'm known for being able to sit back, look at all sides of an argument, and come to my conclusion. and that's what i've done here. it's what i'll always do. my frustration stems from the fact that people tend to ///assume///, and, moreover, don't seem to read what i write to actually read it. it's basic human nature to, in an argument, listen or read to the other to formulate a response instead of actually hearing them out. i get that a lot. it seemed i was getting it here. and honestly, i have no interest participating in a discussion when someone doesn't treat my ideas with the same openness and respect that i treat theirs.

i also notice that you and i end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. i'm like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!" - i know, man. i know. i have my mirror of decss up. i've contributed money to the eff. and i'll continue to do so. when someone stops me at a store and says "i need to see your receipt", i say "sure, no problem. just go ahead and let me see your search warrant and i'll show you my receipt." i wrote my congressmen to show my distrust of recent "anti-terrorism" legislation (as well as the dmca, which, unfortunately, is active in the two states that i live, those being maryland and virginia).

the threat of terrorism is a big thing though. you have to understand - i have friends that are coming over to my house tonight to watch a movie instead of going to a halloween party for the express purpose that they're afraid they might get blown up. freedoms are the most wonderful things in this world, provided you have something to protect them with. forget, for a second, the civilian deaths which, no matter how horribly wrong, are nothing compared to the freedoms we enjoy. if the terrorists took down our government, how do we protect ourselves? have you ever seen "the godfather"? the government is a bit like don corleone - it does some pretty fucked up things at times, but without it, everything crumbles. think about where australia would be without the united states. our government has set the standard. nevermind the fact that other countries know that if they fuck with australia, they're in deep shit with the mightiest military in the world. forget ideals now - you could be DEAD. or a slave. let me be quite frank and disgusting here (those who are easily offended, skip to next sentence): imagine that, because the united states fell, some other country took over australia and you became a slave, you were forced to suck cock and have large erect penises pump in and out of your poorly lubricated asshole so that the money you earned doing your deed could go to your owner. i don't know about you, but that's not the kind of life i want to be living. i want that guarantee of freedom that only a government can truly provide. you can argue all you want that the dmca and sssca & usa act limit freedoms. you're right. but if we don't stand up for what is right by eliminating those that challenge it, we stand to lose it all. that is what the government is doing right now. they are sending a message - "we will do everything in our power to keep our freedom and our life from those that are threatening to take it from us."

i could write an entire book about this. i know this is an incomplete post, and i apologize. i really need to get going. i'll probably take some time over the weekend to write a better summary on what i feel is happening here, what i feel is at stake and what i feel should be done.

in the mean time, i'm out. please do me a favor before responding to whatever i write that you don't agree with - go away from your computer, sit down for 20 or 30 minutes and think about what you've read, think about my motivation for feeling how i feel and writing what i write, and then try and respond in a constructive manner. every argument i've had on the cellar or slashdot began with someone flying off the handle about something i said instead of responding constructively. it's all well and good that you disagree with me, but when someone (not you) starts out responding with "the lack of forethought in this statement astounds me", i know that they're not looking for intelligent conversation. if they were, they'd be making it or helping me with constructive arguments instead of tossing derogatory remarks around. same way. if you want intelligent discussion, give me something intelligent and thoughtful to respond to instead of reciting anti-american propaganda you've been hearing, interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where. not that i'm saying you're guilty of this. but i do tend to get this a lot, and i'm just saying that it doesn't generally put me into a "well, this person has a valid view point" mood - or rather, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

i'll write later. this is going on way too long. i'll make sure to touch all the bases.

10-31-2001, 05:31 PM	#40
dave Guest Posts: n/a	don't forget the PFLP either. people support them because their leaders tell them to. their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. they lose in the end. when you target civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. they seem to not recognize this. blind leading the blind. the funny thing is, i used to be totally completely sided with the palestinians. "oh, israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. i would never argue that israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. i personally think they have shown great restraint - i've not once heard of israeli soldiers grabbing some palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what i saw some palestinians doing to israeli soldiers last october 13. re: the debate and emotions and all that stuff: first of all, the "flames" in signature refers to a love interest that spoiled and is taken from a faith no more song. has nothing to do with arguing, the cellar, etc. second, i think if you read back, my arguments are quite clear and are supported with evidence. emotion does play a part in my writing, but more in the sense that i try to stir it up - human beings feel, and they should. ask any of my friends - i'm known for being able to sit back, look at all sides of an argument, and come to my conclusion. and that's what i've done here. it's what i'll always do. my frustration stems from the fact that people tend to ///assume///, and, moreover, don't seem to read what i write to actually read it. it's basic human nature to, in an argument, listen or read to the other to formulate a response instead of actually hearing them out. i get that a lot. it seemed i was getting it here. and honestly, i have no interest participating in a discussion when someone doesn't treat my ideas with the same openness and respect that i treat theirs. i also notice that you and i end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. i'm like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!" - i know, man. i know. i have my mirror of decss up. i've contributed money to the eff. and i'll continue to do so. when someone stops me at a store and says "i need to see your receipt", i say "sure, no problem. just go ahead and let me see your search warrant and i'll show you my receipt." i wrote my congressmen to show my distrust of recent "anti-terrorism" legislation (as well as the dmca, which, unfortunately, is active in the two states that i live, those being maryland and virginia). the threat of terrorism is a big thing though. you have to understand - i have friends that are coming over to my house tonight to watch a movie instead of going to a halloween party for the express purpose that they're afraid they might get blown up. freedoms are the most wonderful things in this world, provided you have something to protect them with. forget, for a second, the civilian deaths which, no matter how horribly wrong, are nothing compared to the freedoms we enjoy. if the terrorists took down our government, how do we protect ourselves? have you ever seen "the godfather"? the government is a bit like don corleone - it does some pretty fucked up things at times, but without it, everything crumbles. think about where australia would be without the united states. our government has set the standard. nevermind the fact that other countries know that if they fuck with australia, they're in deep shit with the mightiest military in the world. forget ideals now - you could be DEAD. or a slave. let me be quite frank and disgusting here (those who are easily offended, skip to next sentence): imagine that, because the united states fell, some other country took over australia and you became a slave, you were forced to suck cock and have large erect penises pump in and out of your poorly lubricated asshole so that the money you earned doing your deed could go to your owner. i don't know about you, but that's not the kind of life i want to be living. i want that guarantee of freedom that only a government can truly provide. you can argue all you want that the dmca and sssca & usa act limit freedoms. you're right. but if we don't stand up for what is right by eliminating those that challenge it, we stand to lose it all. that is what the government is doing right now. they are sending a message - "we will do everything in our power to keep our freedom and our life from those that are threatening to take it from us." i could write an entire book about this. i know this is an incomplete post, and i apologize. i really need to get going. i'll probably take some time over the weekend to write a better summary on what i feel is happening here, what i feel is at stake and what i feel should be done. in the mean time, i'm out. please do me a favor before responding to whatever i write that you don't agree with - go away from your computer, sit down for 20 or 30 minutes and think about what you've read, think about my motivation for feeling how i feel and writing what i write, and then try and respond in a constructive manner. every argument i've had on the cellar or slashdot began with someone flying off the handle about something i said instead of responding constructively. it's all well and good that you disagree with me, but when someone (not you) starts out responding with "the lack of forethought in this statement astounds me", i know that they're not looking for intelligent conversation. if they were, they'd be making it or helping me with constructive arguments instead of tossing derogatory remarks around. same way. if you want intelligent discussion, give me something intelligent and thoughtful to respond to instead of reciting anti-american propaganda you've been hearing, interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where. not that i'm saying you're guilty of this. but i do tend to get this a lot, and i'm just saying that it doesn't generally put me into a "well, this person has a valid view point" mood - or rather, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." i'll write later. this is going on way too long. i'll make sure to touch all the bases.