Merc - Wtf?

[sexobon]

I appreciated Merc's POV, not so much the spirit in which it was presented.

I appreciate Ibby's POV, not so much the spirit in which it's presented.

Two peas of a pod, just from opposite ends.

Originally Posted by SamIam

... *goes to hide behind couch now*

You'd better hide; or, I'll tickle you!

[xoxoxoBruce]

What the hell are you two doing behind that couch?



Can I watch.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Ibby

I will never make peace with oppressors and other proponents of evil, and I will never agree with most of you about whether or not being a bigot tarnishes someone's entire personality permanently.

It comes down to this: do you believe people can change, or do you believe it's impossible? It seems you're saying it's impossible. And if it's impossible for anyone to change, then there's no point in fighting oppressors. They are what they are, and your only hope is that the babies being born today will happen to turn out differently than the bigot-babies did a generation ago.

The only reason to fight at all, is because you believe you might have a chance at changing people's minds. Which means bigotry can't be permanent.

[ZenGum]

It comes down to this: do you believe people can change, or do you believe it's impossible?

There's a third position - that some individuals are unchangeable, and others not. From which it follows that confronting one unredeemable bad guy (of whatever variety) might influence others into not becoming bad guys.

I missed the original interaction, so I'm just talking theoretical possibilities here.

[Lola Bunny]

I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

There's a third position - that some individuals are unchangeable, and others not. From which it follows that confronting one unredeemable bad guy (of whatever variety) might influence others into not becoming bad guys. ...

If it's the confrontation that matters, with or without a victory; then, the unredeemable bad guy who presents that opportunity is actually doing the other a favor by enabling that person to influence multiple others into not becoming bad guys. So there WAS a method to his madness in that Merc was just trying to help Ibby indirectly all along. That Merc was genius enough to do this without having to undergo change himself was just icing on the cake. Thanks for explaining it.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Lola Bunny

I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.

her attitude.

[Lamplighter]

@Clodfobble:

The only reason to fight at all, is because you believe you might have a chance at changing people's minds.

Another, and maybe a better, reason is to not let bigoted remarks stand without challenge or renunciation.

Originally Posted by sexobon

If it's the confrontation that matters, with or without a victory; then, the unredeemable bad guy who presents that opportunity is actually doing the other a favor by enabling that person to influence multiple others into not becoming bad guys. So there WAS a method to his madness in that Merc was just trying to help Ibby indirectly all along. That Merc was genius enough to do this without having to undergo change himself was just icing on the cake. Thanks for explaining it.

Sure, just like the KKK was doing Blacks a favor by lynching a few
to keep the others from becoming bad guys. They were just trying to help all along.
And, they were genius enough to do this without having to under change, themselves... just icing on the cake.

There must be other examples.

Facetious, or ?
...It depends on your POV.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Lola Bunny

I don't think anyone is saying that they hate Ibby. They're just saying his attitude is not right.

Originally Posted by Ibby

her attitude.

poor attitude.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

.. Another, and maybe a better, reason is to not let bigoted remarks stand without challenge or renunciation.

Letting them stand without acknowlegement, as with trolls, may be best.

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Sure, just like the KKK was doing Blacks a favor by lynching a few to keep the others from becoming bad guys. They were just trying to help all along. And, they were genius enough to do this without having to under change, themselves... just icing on the cake.

There must be other examples.

Facetious, or ?
...It depends on your POV.

Lamp, I was toying with Zen because he's a good guy with a sense of humor who recognizes sarcasm.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Letting them stand without acknowlegement, as with trolls, may be best.

Yeah, Like no one here EVER feeds the trolls. And stop tickling me or you might make me laugh.

If someone feels strongly enough about an issue, of course they should speak out. Even if their opinion is not popular. Even if everyone else disagrees.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

- Wikiquote

[DanaC]

For the record, I was not suggesting that Ibs allow bigoted comments to go unchallenged. If Merc were here now and made a bigoted comment, I imagine I'd be in the queue to slam that comment down.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about maintaining hostilities with another member on the boards. And we're talking about one member going out of their way to deliberately make the board unwelcoming to another member on any terms. However understandable the enmity I don't like that. I didn't like it when Merc was seemingly following Ibs round the board and posting nasty stuff, and I don't like it the other way around.

There's a time and a place for tackling bigotry, and it's when the bigotry is expressed.

I miss Merc. For all his flaws (as we all have) he added something to the board. Sometimes what he added was unpleasant, and sometimes what he added was enlightening or fun. But he was part of the Cellar and not just in a two dimensional political debate way. he was part of it enough for some of us to see past the abrasive and occasionally nasty stuff to the decent bloke underneath.

Nobody is all good, and nobody is all bad. Merc has his flaws, but he also has admirable qualities. One of which was a tendency, when the shit hit the fan, to go off and consider the situation and just occasionally, hold up his hand and admit something was his fault and that what he had said was unacceptable.

But realy this thread wasn;t started as an assessment of Merc's flaws and qualities. It was just a call out, if he's reading, that he is missed. Not by everybody. But by some. Like any of us really.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by sexobon

poor attitude.

I think you mean poor pitiful me attitude.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by DanaC

For the record, I was not suggesting that Ibs allow bigoted comments to go unchallenged.

Only his/her/neosexual/noncisgender/trans/tranny/whatever's own bigoted comments.

[Lola Bunny]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But realy this thread wasn;t started as an assessment of Merc's flaws and qualities. It was just a call out, if he's reading, that he is missed. Not by everybody. But by some. Like any of us really.

I agree!