Washington Post has been particularly ridiculous this season

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

When UT says the Post did poorly, tw says the Post did well.

When the Post agrees that it did poorly, tw says that UT did poorly

When the post made a mistake, it admits it. When will we find those Saddam WMDs? Nobody (including me) will answer that one. We might make a mistake.

[classicman]

We already did. Move the fuck on.

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

We already did. Move the fuck on.

Why is your head stuck in your ass again? Do you again need help pulling it out?

[classicman]

Its you who pulls your head out of your ass every so often and regurgitates the same shit you've been eating since the last time. Its old, tired and boring ... its "You".

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

Its you who ...

Classic extremist. Only knows how to disparage and insult. With nothing to contribute. It makes you presidential material.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

Why is your head stuck in your ass again? Do you again need help pulling it out?

Originally Posted by tw

Classic extremist. Only knows how to disparage and insult. With nothing to contribute. It makes you presidential material.

[tw]

Do you need help pulling your head out? Being so busy posting cheapshots, you forgot to answer.

[classicman]

I was working, some of us are still needed in the workforce.

[Elspode]

Whatever else I discover this political cycle, it is good to know that, despite my lengthy absences from this forum, TW is still a complete twit. Love, bro. Twit on!

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

Some still deny a red line that successfully removed WMDs from 13 some sites in Syria. Still deny chemical weapons were removed by an international coalition with total Russian cooperation. Shipped out to Italy by a flotilla of Scandinavian ships. And were destroyed in a US Navy ship.

International response to that red line was so severe that WMD were removed in less than one month in 2013.

Ping.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ping.

A red line meant all such weapons were removed - by the entire world. We did what all great nations do. Accomplish something without using even one soldier. Because Obama drew a line, the entire world hopped to it.

Entire world also demanded that Russia verify those weapons were removed and never exist again. Russia promised. The world, led by Obama, successfully held Russia to that promise.

New chemical weapons were recently created and stored at bases occupied by Russians. Putin may be testing a mentally deficient president - as a chess player would and should. New WMDs were created probably in cooperation with the Russians. Putin knows Trump. And now knows Trump will spend massively to attack what is much less relevant.

We just spent $100million to destroy 6 to 20 jets. An irrelevant pin prick. Runways intact. Fuel depot untouched (Japanese made that mistake in Pearl Harbor). All buildings where bosses are and made decisions - untouched. Nothing was done to make that air base non-operational. WMDs and the people who made, stored, and deployed them - untouched and not even threatened. We did virtually nothing - if one ignores hype. If one thinks militarily or even politically.

Russia knew of and probably protected Syria's Sarin. Had we attacked those Sarin storage buildings, then Russia could not deny what is obvious and what they knew. We did not even attack the Sarin.

Onus once was on the world. Russia knew those weapons existed, located troops that protected those weapons, and may have helped implement their use. But the world no longer need bother. Actions were not first justified by diplomacy. World is no longer justified to demand and act on a useful solution. We tainted the waters. Only remaining solution is larger military action. It's called 'Wag the dog'.

And so we will waste more American power and growth on another decade of war. Eisenhower warned of this in his farewell address.

Putin is a chess player manipulating an emotional and deficient president. Asad knows he can use Sarin selectively without consequences. We spent $100million attacking trivial and irrelevant targets. We did not even attack known Sarin storage facilities.

Diplomacy, once used successfully, is now compromised. Short of war or blockade, we have few options unless we can get the entire world to act again. But that is unlikely due to an attack unjustified by any world body.

Obama solved the problem. This one subverted that and future solutions. Asad can now use Sarin again with few consequences. And Russia not longer need stop him. Russia can even supply him covertly - without consequences.

[sexobon]

There have always been questions about Syria's adherence to the 2013 U.S. and Russia-brokered agreement. No one who ignores hype, thinks militarily or even politically, has taken the Assad regime at its word that it declared its entire chemical weapons stockpile. In May 2015, trace elements of sarin and the nerve agent VX were found at a facility that the Assad regime never declared, according to Reuters. Assad could have retained; and/or, reconstituted chemical weapons.

While production infrastructure was banned by the 2013 agreement, there was nothing in the agreement to eliminate the scientific infrastructure, the cadre of scientists and small labs that could be used to re-establish, even on a small basis, a CW program. Creating small batches of sarin can be accomplished in much smaller facilities than were previously destroyed. You don't need a lot of sarin to wreak horrible devastation and sarin can be created within a day if the ingredients and equipment are available.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which works in liaison with the UN, issued a statement Friday that reiterated its position from 2016, which was that it was "not able to resolve all identified gaps, inconsistencies and discrepancies in Syria's declaration and therefore could not fully verify that Syria had submitted a declaration that could be considered accurate" or that it was in compliance with the 2013 agreement.

Obama got suckered by the Russians and scurried the whole gullible world go along with him to preserve his (in)vain red line. Now Trump has to clean up after Obama's failure.
.
Pong.
.
sexobon: ∞ and beyond, tw: -1

[Undertoad]

Obama's Intel director also said in 2016 Senate report that Syria was not following the agreement. So it was always more of a pink line than a red line. A pink line was a better position than use of force in 2013. That is arguably still true now for 2013.

But when someone has violated your previous agreement, and was blatant about it, you don't go back and get another agreement. This was a test of the new Presidency. Hillary would have faced the same test, and would have answered it the same general way. It was necessary.

It would be funny/sad if Assad (or Assad's minion's) decision included the calculation that Trump and the Ruskies were superfriends and so they could do as they liked/needed.

[DanaC]

I'm not often in favour of military action, and certainly not bombing, as a solution, but I honestly do not see what other option there was at this stage save for leaving the civilians of Syria to their awful fate.

There's been a lot of noise in the media about Obama having rolled back on his red line in 2013 and thereby giving Assad the impression he can get away with this kind of shit without any real come back. I don't buy that. I think Assad knew damn well he was on his last notice from the US under Obama - hence no chemical attacks until after the change in leader.

Like UT says, that approach can't be used twice. It's a one shot deal.

There's also a lot of noise in the media and international community that this was illegal and that the US should not have unilaterally chosen to act - but really, what other choice is there but for someone to act unilaterally?

If Russia stopped propping this war criminal up and assisting him in brutalising his own people, then there would be other options, like UN peacekeeping forces, and the enforcement of no-fly zones. None of that is possible as long as the UN is being crippled into inaction by the Russian veto.

For all the mockery, and I daresay there will be more of that to come, in this test, Trump has managed to project himself as decisive and a force to be reckoned with whilst simultaneously demonstrating independence from Russian influence. As political tests go for new leaders, I'd say he did pretty well.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Obama's Intel director also said in 2016 Senate report that Syria was not following the agreement. So it was always more of a pink line than a red line.

Red line was blunt and obvious. The entire world averted what would have resulted in American military operations. Best presidents need not invent or create wars. And do not use military until it is a last option. Weak ones, without any patience or grasp, are quick to use their ultmate weapons while harming an American economy and its people.

Onus was on the Russians. Obama's strategy was comprehensive and effective. Russians promised the entire world that Sarin would be completely removed. If they lied, then good. That lie will be exposed - at major expense to Russians. But a dumb president let Russians off the hook - maybe as Putin (or worse Asad) carefully strategized. Trump was played.

Russian lies no longer matter; are now irrelevant. Trump wasted $100million by attacking trivial items. Had we attacked those Sarin facilities, Russians not only would be embarrassed. They might have to explain Russians soldiers harmed by Sarin that THEY were responsible for not existing.

The most important fact in all this - Russia was responsible for collecting all Sarin and Sarin manufacturing equipment. Russians and only Russians were responsible for confirmed no more Sarin was created. They promised the entire world.

Trump does not have balls (or grasp) to blame the actual problem. For someone so impudent and egotistical, he certainly did not solve problems by negotiating a deal or by using military to a conclusive solution.

Trump even ignored the fundamental problem here. The Russians did not keep their promise. And are apparently playing Trump in a chess game that Trump does not even know exists. Maybe too many in the Trump administration fear to confront Russians? Since Putin may have so many Trump people in his pocket. Maybe top Trump officials can be blackmailed by Putin.