Homegrown Terror Prevention Act

[Kitsune]

There are more terrorists living among us than you realized possible and they are not all foreigners -- many of these individuals planning to harm our way of life are citizens that look no different than you or I! Fear not, Congress is ahead of the game and is taking every step possible to protect you, your family, and America.

The act deals with the issue through the creation of a congressional commission that will be empowered to hold hearings, conduct investigations, and designate various groups as "homegrown terrorists." ... Unlike inquiries in the past where the activity was carried out collectively, the act establishing the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Commission will empower all the members on the commission to arrange hearings, obtain testimony, and even to administer oaths to witnesses, meaning that multiple hearings could be running simultaneously in various parts of the country.

Wow, that doesn't sound familiar at all.

As should be clear from the vagueness of the definitions, the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act could easily be abused to define any group that is pressuring the political system as "terrorist," ranging from polygamists, to second amendment rights supporters, anti-abortion protesters, anti-tax agitators, immigration activists, and peace demonstrators.

Why does this ugly, damaging fear keep resurfacing like this?

The full text of S.1959

[classicman]

Its like these guys have nothing better to do, Ugghh!

[regular.joe]

I hope that you are not saying that we don't have any home grown terrorists. I hope you are not saying it's only fear working here. I hope you're not saying that nothing should be done.

I'm saying you would be wrong on all three points.

What should be done with respect to people or groups of people inside and outside the United States, who want to attack the United States with violence or some form of destruction, should be debated.

Debate, make a decision, and do something. Yes, something should be done.

[Bullitt]

"I have a list in my hand of 57 known terrorists in the State Department as we speak!"

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I hope that you are not saying that we don't have any home grown terrorists.

We didn't call them terrorists in the past, but violent extremist groups currently exist without the United States, have existed here, and will continue to into the future. That's nothing surprising.

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I hope you are not saying it's only fear working here.

Bringing back McCarthy-like witch hunts isn't just fear, its an irrational and dangerous fear. Where the term "communist" was once extended to a blanket, the term "terrorist" would, through this bill, be conveniently expanded to apply to a large number of groups and people that the government wants to investigate and jail without the need to obtain proper court orders or follow constitutional law. The moment you're labeled a terrorist, you're suddenly stripped of many important rights and are subject to indefinite imprisonment, denied access to a lawyer, fair trial, etc. This bill, coupled with the PATRIOT act, would open the doors for a politically-driven witch hunt based on loose/undefined terminology. Would you feel comfortable with a panel that could single you out and put you on a list that basically enables the government to bypass due process and do pretty much whatever they want to you without you having any recourse?

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I hope you're not saying that nothing should be done.

I hope you're done putting words in my mouth.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I hope that you are not saying that we don't have any home grown terrorists. I hope you are not saying it's only fear working here. I hope you're not saying that nothing should be done.

Terrorism is already illegal. Only fear elevates it to something that is worth threatening the freedom of association. Something should be done to prevent legislation based on that fear.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Why does this ugly, damaging fear keep resurfacing like this?

What's the fastest and easiest way to force citizen cohesion, stir group think, and shut up dissidents? Scare the crap out of everyone.

[ZenGum]

Just today I changed my signature.

So I'll give it one last airing:

"The people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders ... you tell them they're under attack, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism".
Herman Goering.


Sleep now, little signature.

[piercehawkeye45]

Ah, I love covering up infections with band-aids, it works so well.

Until the Republicans and Democrats find out and admit to what causes people to become terrorists, we can do nothing except cover up the problem and potentially make it worse by ignoring the cause.

[Happy Monkey]

McCarthyism is like treating an infection with an autoimmune disorder.

[regular.joe]

A McCarthy style witch hunt is probably not the right answer.

I do not believe that we are not under attack.

I sincerely wish that we lived in a world where we could go about our lives on a daily basis, and not be concerned with someone trying to undermine or destroy that way of life. Sadly, that is not the way things are.

I do not think that being a pacifist is not patriotic. Part of the key to our survival is diversity. I don't think I'll ask my pacifist friends to be the ones to protect me and my family from a real threat.

I could put it this way: if everyone in the world were a pacifist, it would be a pretty nice place to live. Sadly, this is not the case.

Realistic, prudent, thoughtful action is necessary. I also understand that the patriot act, and the act currently under discussion may or may not be the best answers. The best answers may be evolving, under construction so to speak. such is the way of our democratic government.

Do I understand you correctly if I were to say that you are more afraid of our Government abusing the power we may give it to protect us then you are of the threats in our world?

[Cicero]

snip~`(8) Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens and lawful permanent residents.~snip

Too Late!!!



I thought homegrown was supposed to be the good st.......

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Do I understand you correctly if I were to say that you are more afraid of our Government abusing the power we may give it to protect us then you are of the threats in our world?

No, that is not what I'm afraid of. We're not giving our government anything -- they're taking our rights from us under the guise of protecting us from threats real and imagined. There is no need to fear the threats to us in our world, these threats that are out to change our way of life, when our government (coupled with the bed wetting public that supports sacrificing freedom for security) is more efficient at doing that than any terrorist would ever be.

[piercehawkeye45]

regular.joe, you should read this book:

Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror

It does a very good job at explaining why Al Qaeda and other terrorist are attacking America.

"I sincerely wish that we lived in a world where we could go about our lives on a daily basis, and not be concerned with someone trying to undermine or destroy that way of life. Sadly, that is not the way things are."

This is a very good quote and the people that are waging a war on America feel the same way you do, at least some of them. The reason 9/11 happened is not because of our freedom or ideals, those people disagree with them but they would never attack us for it. They attack us because of our foreign policy and how some feel Islam is under attack by the United States. Then because we elect the leaders who determine this foreign policy, we are partially responsible for the attack even though you or I never directly hurt anyone and just want peace.

It is very messy issue with a lot of closemindness and irrationality on both sides.


If you want another book that might be good...
Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism
I haven't read this yet but I have a feeling it might be informative.

[Sundae]

Thank you Pierce.

It's tricky in a world that doesn't recognise internet contacts as real people - yeah thanks FaceBook - to explain to the outside world that Americans aren't xenophobes. The longer I stay in the Cellar and the more Americans I "meet", the more hopeful I am.