Merc - Wtf?

[Griff]

I was guilty of tangling with merc constantly. His posts were often like fingernails on a chalkboard for me. He is more Heinlein whereas I'm more MacLeod, but we share some ideas. We could have used him during the election cycle, when the cellar totally lost its moorings. I was rooting for the President and I could see that as a group we'd left rationality at the door.

As a bulwark for tolerance, I'd suggest that Ibby follow up on his gun talk, join a club and really listen to what people are talking about. Don't listen for buzzwords or to be offended, listen for commonality. This advice goes for me as well.

[Lamplighter]

For the most part, I'm with Ibby in this thread.

Telling Ibby for forget the harangues put upon him by Merc,
and to be more "tolerant" is disingenuous.
I don't remember Merc ever following that path.

Merc's remarks on many occasions were insensitive, and unacceptable to me.
He was smart enough, when sober, to know better,
but once he detected what he considered a flaw,
he seemed to delighted in offending, or trying to.

Politically, his latest signature said a lot about him.
And part of my signature line is directly in response to him.
Sometimes, insults can not and need not be forgotten or tolerated.

[glatt]

Merc was a mixed bag. When he posted in the non-political forums, he could be cool and interesting. I got a kick out of seeing the snakes he would find in his yard as just one example.

But in the politics forum, his posts were poison. And not just because I disagree with him politically. He would just be thoughtless and abrasive. Sometimes downright nasty.

My one regret is that as a moderator, I sent him a pm a couple days before he left, asking him to tone it down and be nicer. And then I went to bed. While I was sleeping, several dwellars absolutely tore into him in response to his latest negative comment, and made his comments seem almost benign in comparison. My attempt at being peacemaker was just a joke at that point. Merc told me he didn't enjoy the Cellar any more and wouldn't be back. I think I'm one of the people he lost respect for.

I think the Cellar is not in a particularly healthy place right now politically. There is no balance. The Cellar presidential exit poll showed that virtually everyone here is on team Obama, when the nation as a whole is split about 50/50. We could use some more conservatives here. But I'd like them to come without the nastiness of Merc. (It would be nice if Lookout would come back. He was a conservative who could back his positions up with rational and respectful arguments.)

[Griff]

I was of that opinion, but not allowing people to grow or show their decent side isn't the side of the angels either. I've tried to keep in mind that he was force fed indoctrination his entire adult life. He chose to be indoctrinated, but within the belief system he chose, he was one of the good guys. That the society he thought he was protecting might disagree with him was probably hard to process. <shrug> Ibby can be the bigger man by trying to understand others without sanctioning their attitudes or beliefs. <breaks up soapbox for kindling>

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Ibby

What a douche

[SamIam]

You know, if we're all going to give Merc a break, we should give Ibby a break, as well. What? If someone leaves the board, we can see their sterling qualities beneath all the tarnish, but if someone sticks around, everyone jumps on them? I can understand Ibby's point.

That said, Merc had a very kind side (despite his posts in the Politics Forum) that most folks were probably not aware of. Several years back I posted that I couldn't post pix because I didn't have a digital camera. Merc PM'ed me and offered to send me one of his own almost new cameras that he wasn't using. I accepted with great gratitude. I use that camera to this day and I often think of Merc when I use it, especially when I post pictures here.

And Merc and I continued to clash on Politics. Big deal.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by DanaC

... I assume some of that is aimed at me? ...

Just an educated guess at a rationale, not an accusation.

Originally Posted by DanaC

... I always clashed with him, and I thought he was being a bully at some points. ....

There is an age old, time tested, military technique for teaching cocky (self righteous) individuals humility so they can realize their full potential through the synergism of being a team player. I used to get paid to tear people down who outranked me, were more accomplished than I and who would someday be my boss knowing that I helped make them effective leaders rather than self centered ladder climbers who fall halfway up; because, they didn't have support from the base. A person employing this technique must use it judiciously and be diplomatic elsewhere to maintain its credibility. One can't be taking out the frustrations of their job, family, politics; or, unleashing under the influence elsewhere and expect everyone else to know that they're employing the technique in an isolated case and not just bullying. That takes a trained eye.

Originally Posted by DanaC

... You reduce other members to a single facet of their personality or history and can't see how dehumanising that is. People are not black and white they are every shade of grey. ...

Good people can have bad ideas. One must learn to separate the person from the idea and address each as such. Until Ibby figures out how to do this and put it into practice, Ibby is destined to be considered white trash.

Originally Posted by glatt

... My attempt at being peacemaker was just a joke at that point. Merc told me he didn't enjoy the Cellar any more and wouldn't be back. I think I'm one of the people he lost respect for. ...

Merc knows the limited role of moderators here. He wouldn't have bothered telling you he was leaving if he didn't respect that you tried.

Originally Posted by Griff

... <shrug> Ibby can be the bigger man by trying to understand others without sanctioning their attitudes or beliefs. <breaks up soapbox for kindling> ...

No, Ibby can't. This is why I didn't attempt what Merc did.

[DanaC]

Maybe I was a tad harsh with Ibs. And no, I certainly wouldn't suggest she forget the things Merc said. Nor allow attacks to go unchallenged.

But holding grudges and wheeling them out when someone says something nice about the object of your grudge isn't helpful to anyone imo.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Maybe I was a tad harsh with Ibs.

But holding grudges and wheeling them out when someone says something nice about the object of your grudge isn't helpful to anyone imo.

I don't think you were too harsh, at all. I thought you expressed extremely well what some of us were trying to say. If all we get is a rolleyes response, that just tells us about Ibby.

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by SamIam

You know, if we're all going to give Merc a break, we should give Ibby a break, as well. What? If someone leaves the board, we can see their sterling qualities beneath all the tarnish, but if someone sticks around, everyone jumps on them? I can understand Ibby's point.

That would not be in keeping with the Hypocritic Oath.

[Ibby]

The way to peace and justice is not through kumbayas and trying to see the humanity of oppressors. The way to peace and justice is through a continuous fight - yes, fight - against all oppressors, and all instances of oppression, starting with one's self. By denying humanity and respect to others, you give up your own right to have respect.

Think about all the non-violent, peaceful social movements from your history textbooks. the leaders of those movements are assassinated anyway almost every time, and it is only through the contrast between them and the radical resistance that the oppressors were forced to acquiesce to as little as they could let go of. in fact, the leaders of moderate social movements are almost always oppressors themselves, willing to sell out other groups to help their own. Ghandi said that the jews should all LET the nazis kill them, because if they kill enough of you maybe they'll feel bad and stop (they won't).

I will never make peace with oppressors and other proponents of evil, and I will never agree with most of you about whether or not being a bigot tarnishes someone's entire personality permanently.

Trying to empathize with, understand, humanize your oppressors gets people killed. real actual people getting really actually killed as a result of these systems of oppression, every single day. people like me. So you can go on about trying to understand and humanize some of the worst perpetrators of oppression, but you will never convince me.

[Rhianne]

I wonder who came up with that old phrase, 'Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity'. I always liked it, I mean, I can see some failings in the argument and all but the humour was diverting at least.

Sorry, I have nothing I can add sensibly to the thread, please carry on.

[glatt]

That was a perfectly cromulent addition to the thread. No apologies needed.

[SamIam]

What's "cromulent" mean?

I am going to play Ibby's advocate here for a moment. Here is everyone bemoaning the loss of Merc's point of view because if I understand ya'll correctly, radical as he was, the Cellar benefits from having Dwellers who have a variety of outlooks and life experiences. I agree with this. I've learned any number of things here - some from people who violently opposed me. So, yes I miss Merc for that reason (and others), and I too would also love to see Lookout start posting here again as well.

But look at how passionate Ibby is in the defense of his beliefs. From the very start, I enjoyed his posts. Damn good for a 16 year old kid. And since he has returned, I continue to like reading what he has to say. I don't much get to discuss things with someone IRL - especially not where I now live - who is anything like Ibby.

You can't have it both ways, folks. Bemoan the loss of a member with extreme points of view while clobbering another who's still here because everyone doesn't like HIS point of view?

Nope. Doesn't work for me. Posts saying "We love you Merc, but we hate you Ibby" leave me feeling baffled and frankly wondering if Merc's reception would be one iota better if he ever did come back. It's dishonest. Sorry, everyone, but that's how I feel.

The kid's got spunk. If you respected Merc for his spirit, you have to respect Ibby as well. Even when you don't agree.

*goes to hide behind couch now*

[Ibby]

*her point of view
just sayin'