Merc - Wtf?

[xoxoxoBruce]

That explains a lot.

[Aliantha]

mainly the pot smoking... lol

[Undertoad]

Yeah. Surprised the fuck out of me to discover I am in fact a 57 year old Jamaican man.

http://www.baconorbeercan.com/

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Yeah. Surprised the fuck out of me to discover I am in fact a 57 year old Jamaican man.

Really??? I've always had this really strange fantasy....... is there any chance you might post a NSFW??

[jimhelm]

Someone shit on the coats... I mean I think someone shit on or around the coat area.....

[ZenGum]

I think I can now safely say ... that this thread kept reminding me of Dennis the Constitutional Peasant from Monty Python's Holy Grail.

Except he was all "help, help, I'm being repressed."

[sexobon]

Ok, lets settle this. Merc left because Dana wouldn't put out.

[Lola Bunny]

Sexobon, I never knew you were a funny man.

[ZenGum]

Wait, you're telling me that "Wtf?" mean "Want to fuck?"???

[BigV]

Clearly the cellar is not a safe and receptive place for me to voice my progressive and anti-oppressive views,

You can't be serious.

Unless there have been some unpublished threats we don't know about, I can't find anything in this thread that constitutes a danger to you. Your ideas are a different story, they are "under attack", but they should be strong enough to withstand a challenge. If not, they deserve to be taken down.

and so i might not be around much for a while, but if you or any other dwellars want to discuss, earnestly and un-antagonistically or defensively,

What do you mean by this? No disagreement? I've been un-antagonistic and un-defensive in my discourse with you, so let's continue, hm?

how I think generations of oppressive narratives and positions have hurt our nation, how I can't feel comfortable identifying as someone who is "patriotic" in supporting the country I want to serve as a career (as someone who plans to serve in the state dep't as an FSO),

totally legit.

why I believe the "I'll say what I want, I know better than oppressed people how to fix oppression, your political-correctness-run-amok-worldview-makes-things-worse" culture only perpetuates problems...

... I'll say this as plainly as I can. This is what you are doing. You say it's what others are doing and by so doing perpetuate the problem. And you're equally guilty. You've been open about some of the struggles you've faced and how they've informed and equipped you to overcome your difficulties. But others here, *every* other person here, has faced similar challenges, or oppression, or tragedy, or disadvantages or all of the above, that shapes their responses too. No one has a monopoly on being oppressed. You know your story better than anyone, but you don't know all stories better. Your arguments lose strength when you display hypocrisy and contradiction.

If you or any other dwellar really wants to know why I find that argument hurtful to all marginalized Americans, and wants to understand why I am very passionate about my slightly-revolutionary, controversial "core beliefs" about privilege and oppression, please PM me for a contact link.

Consider this your Public Message. I'm all ears.




Ali, xoB, for the record, this post has been incubating for a couple days.

[sexobon]

From master debater to master incubator, these are the good old days.

[Lamplighter]

... I'll say this as plainly as I can. This is what you are doing. You say it's what others are doing and by so doing perpetuate the problem. And you're equally guilty. You've been open about some of the struggles you've faced and how they've informed and equipped you to overcome your difficulties. But others here, *every* other person here, has faced similar challenges, or oppression, or tragedy, or disadvantages or all of the above, that shapes their responses too. No one has a monopoly on being oppressed. You know your story better than anyone, but you don't know all stories better.
Your arguments lose strength when you display hypocrisy and contradiction.

The theorem here and among other Dwellars seems to be that Ibby must
know of, understand, show empathy for, and listen to, her elders
before she will be able to effectively discuss her issues.
She should be tolerant of those who do not tolerate her... etc.

I used the word "elders" deliberately because many of the postings have been quite paternalistic,
being presented that if she were just more mature, ready, experienced in life,
knew how much other have suffered, etc. etc. etc. then she could grasp the wisdom
being showered down upon her and she would certainly change her ways.

If such assumptions were true, everyone would always agree with me,
as I am the eldest Dwellar here; but that certainly is not the case.

I think I understand and agree with Ibby's remark that The Cellar
has recently not been a "safe" place for her to discuss issues
... especially in this thread... and apparently for a long time now.
Is it useful have someone so well respected here say
... "you are equally guilty" and accused of "hypocrisy and contradiction".
but imply that some day you will be ready, and I will mold you.

Ibby is 21 (not 16, as some seem to believe). I fully agree with
so many ideas she publishes here, and it's hard for me
to understand and "tolerate" all the antagonism and paternalism.

Being young is not a crime, even though some here act as if it is, or use it as an excuse.
I believe Ibby is and has been acting very maturely, regardless of her age.
Her's is the time to look for the better way, to look for change, and to proselytize.

If all this "wisdom" is being shown to Ibby is intended to foster this,
maybe people should not try to be quite so helpful, and try some other approach.
If people disagree with Ibby's issues, argue them;
but don't use intimidation based on age, maturity, level of suffering, or whatever.

I just hope this thread does not grind down Ibby's zeal and righteous indignation
whenever bigotry and intolerance are thrust upon her.

[Aliantha]

The theorem here and among other Dwellars seems to be that Ibby must
know of, understand, show empathy for, and listen to, her elders
before she will be able to effectively discuss her issues.
She should be tolerant of those who do not tolerate her... etc.

No, I don't think that's what anyone is saying, and it's definitely not what I think.

What I DO think is that like most people her age, Ibs is totally absorbed in her own world and own journey, and as I say to my own kids (who are only a few/couple of years younger and tend to have the same mind set at times) that's fine. Get back to me in a few years and let me know if you still feel the same way.

The point is, I make my suggestions, and if they're falling on deaf ears, I am forced to acknowledge that whatever the issue is that we're discussing, I'm forced to let them find their own path because they aren't interested in what 'an old fart like me' has to say about it, cause what would I know?

I recall being similar to that when I was younger. There are many things my parents tried to advise me on during my youth which I refused to accept advice on which I now wish I had, but that's part of growing up. Coming to realise that sometimes the old farts did and still do know what they're talking about. It's where the saying, 'the more you know, the more you find you don't know' comes from.

Kids don't know enough yet to realise how much they don't know. That's ok. That's just the way it is.

eta: Please note that I have made only one comment about thinking that Ib and Merc were both guilty of saying bad stuff to each other. With regard to whatever else Ibs has said in this thread, I have tried to explain it from my own personal perspective. I understand that Ibs needs to do things a certain way and that's fine, but I find now, that i have little or no response to those posts simply because I do feel I have some experience in some of these issues, so I don't need to be told how I 'should' feel about them. Ibs could post about them till the cows come home, and if that makes her feel good, then that's ok by me, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I really don't see any benefit in being part of the discussion because I have nothing positive to add. I've said the things I felt might have been helpful and now there is not much more I could say, so why keep talking? I'm pretty sure this is how many others here feel too. They're not saying Ibs shouldn't be saying these things. They're simply saying they have nothing helpful to add.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

snip~ If such assumptions were true, everyone would always agree with me,
as I am the eldest Dwellar here; but that certainly is not the case.

Elder respect diminishes with the onset of senility.

I think I understand and agree with Ibby's remark that The Cellar
has recently not been a "safe" place for her to discuss issues
... especially in this thread... and apparently for a long time now.

dis·cuss (d-sks)
tr.v. dis·cussed, dis·cuss·ing, dis·cuss·es
1. To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.

Making demands, accusations, and fer-me-or-agin-me declarations, isn't opening a discussion, and always leads to defensive push-back.

Ibby is 21 (not 16, as some seem to believe). I fully agree with
so many ideas she publishes here, and it's hard for me
to understand and "tolerate" all the antagonism and paternalism.

I doubt that surprises anyone

Being young is not a crime, even though some here act as if it is, or use it as an excuse.
I believe Ibby is and has been acting very maturely, regardless of her age.
Her's is the time to look for the better way, to look for change, and to proselytize.

Yes that's what college kids do, and the world is a better place for it. The movements incited by college kids, (especially liberal arts colleges), have forced/coerced some improvements in society and at minimum enlightenment the general public. The ones that were successful, were, because of how the went about it, as zeal and conviction are insufficient for winning the attention and respect of the target audience.

I just hope this thread does not grind down Ibby's zeal and righteous indignation whenever bigotry and intolerance are thrust upon her.

If it does, he's certainly not prepared to fight the good fight. Consider it basic training and because of his reaction, I don't think he's ready. He can't separate the cause from the personal, nor argument from enemy, and if people show him the hate he's spewed on merc, I think he'll fold. I hope he'll prove me wrong.

[DanaC]

I still don't get why you have a problem with calling Ibby she though.