What's upsetting you today?

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Do you really think I want a retired grey hound so I can make money and win races?

No, but I did think you had a sense of humor.

[Sundae]

Riots in Tottenham (North London).
It's a volatile area, but seeing London on fire just makes me feel ill.

It started as a peaceful protest outside the police station on Tottenham High Road, but quickly turned to violence and mob rule. It was ostensibly about the shooting of a man on Thursday - police said he fired on an officer and was shot and killed.

It ended with burning buildings, one police van, two police cars, looting, destruction of property and people leaving their homes with nothing on their backs only to return in the morning to burnt out shells. People's livelihoods effectively destroyed.

Animals are smart enough not to shit where they eat; what is with these people?!
Although it is suspected that many who turned up from midnight onwards were organised theives, who attacked a retail park half a mile from the centre of the action, in order to specifically rob a sports clothing store and an electrical store.

Let's hope todays two big football matches (in different parts of London) and the Hackney Carnival aren't touched by any of the same madness.

[DanaC]

I know, I felt my stomach sink slightly as I was watching the news. Felt like watching the Brixton riots way back when Ghost Town was a hit.

Animals are smart enough not to shit where they eat, and so are humans, but crowds aren't just collections of individuals. The way a crowd responds is different to the way any of the individuals making it up respond.

There's clearly a lot of ill-feeling around this. Friends, family and neighbours are adamant that the man who was shot and kiled was not armed, and would not have shot at anybody. Yes he was a bit of a rogue, but not a violent man, according to those who knew him. They are angry at how the police have responded, and let's face it, wuold you really trust the police to review such a shooting fairly? I mean, ffs look at the Menenez shooting.

Horrible to see though. And really horrible to see the ones who just went on a mad looting and destruction spree.

I am always slightly dubious when I hear about an initially peaceful demonstration turning ugly. How many times have we been told that all was well until the black flag waving anarchists kicked off, only to find out later, that what started the violence was police kettling tactics?

I have been present at two major London protest marches in my life, and on both occasions they turned into a riot. On both occasions it was the bloody police who started it. On both occasions it was reported as trhe protestors turning ugly, and in each case it was later determined that the police had acted with calculated and needless aggression (in the Poll tax demo going so far as to remove their numbers from their epaulettes) and in doing so turned a peaceful crowd into a riotous mob.

Not saying this happened in Tottenham. But am definately dubious about what sparked this. I've seen first hand how the bastards use those dogs, horses and riot police when faced with protestors.

[SatelliteHead]

For me it's just the weather.

[Sundae]

Eye witnesses are complaining that the Police stood back and did nothing.
That they were scared and ran away.

They can't win, really.

And who goes mob-handed and shouts in front of a police station expecting answers?

A vigil, a petition, some sort of campaign. Yes.
Standing in the street and demanding answers? Yeah, way to go in a volatile area.

Meh - you know I'm more right wing than you anyway...

It just always sickens me to see people caught up in events beyond their control. And burning homes and stealing cars and wrecking shops which people are trying to work in... I dunno. I don't think I'll ever see a cause "valid" enough.

I get what you're saying about mob mentality though.
As it was, so it shall be

[DanaC]

That kind of destruction is no answer to grievances. What it is though is an expression of anger and frustration (usually) and when that happens in the context of a crowd, it can mushroom fast.

I'm probably the last person you'd expect to be violent. But I was just as eagerly throwing pieces of broken concrete at the riot police as anybody else at the Poll Tax demo. And I remember, very clearly, at one point, the part of the march I was with spilled into a side street where a police van was coming in our direction, moving slowly because of the people. For some reason, the mesh shield was raised, and his windshield was unprotected. We swarmed that van. There were people on top of it stamping, we were throwing things at the window, a couple of people were trying to stave the windshield in with wooden sticks that had once been attached to protest signs.

The police van backed out of the side street.

Now. I know that the man in that van was just an ordinary guy doing his job. Possibly with a wife and child at home, probably scared. But at that moment he was just the enemy. Because an hour earlier, I'd just seen one of my friends knocked unconscious by a police man when the crowd was still just shouting slogans. It was that event that kicked off the violence at that part of the demo (opposite the entrance to Downing Street). A big burly cop leaning over the barrier and punching a 17 year old girl to the ground.

A little later, as J and i were running down another street, there were a group looting an off-licence. We joined in.

It's hard to explain what the atmosphere of a riot is. It is a very peculiar feeling, when a demonstration turns into a riot. It's not like anything else I have ever experienced. Being part of a crowd action is weird, it changes the rules, it changes you.

[Trilby]

I would imagine being part of something like that might even feel...cathartic? I'd like to punch some random dude from Wall Street just to make myself feel better.

[Sundae]

I admit, if I was caught on the street and there was looting of an off-licence, I would be tempted to join in. On the understanding that "It can't hurt any more now."

I can't say I'd feel the same about JD Sports.

[DanaC]

Very much so Bri. Very much so.

@ Sundae: yeah....I'm not sure I'd be over eager to loot a healthfood store...Thornton's on the other hand...




Just to be clear, I'm not saying the police started this. It could well be that this is an instance of a small group of protestors holding a vigil being disrupted by others looking for trouble. Just that I have learned over the years to view with great suspicion the initial reports of such events.

[Sundae]

You've made me smile at least. The idea of you, bandana-faced, running off with armfuls of mung beans and tofu.

I bet people automatically assume you're a veggie too...

[DanaC]

It's amazing how often they do.

And the times I've arrived at group meetings with a McD's coffee and someone's said: I wouldn't have thought you'd go in McDonalds...

[Sundae]

I used to understand why people thought I was a veggie.
Left wing, small and skinny, outspoken.

But now I am more self-effacing and as previously mentioned I look like a farmer's wife.
But in the staffroom people still point me to the vegetarian food, or offer to check packets for me before I eat.
Perhaps it's the hair (the hair proves it).

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Sundae

You've made me smile at least. The idea of you, bandana-faced, running off with armfuls of mung beans and tofu.

And that made me smile.

[footfootfoot]

[Nirvana]

Originally Posted by Sundae

But now I am more self-effacing and as previously mentioned I look like a farmer's wife.

So we must be twins

[I am a farmer's wife]