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#1531 |
polaroid of perfection
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 24,185
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Let Unca back.
He behaved in an intolerably irritating manner but he was harmless and at least we know he reads threads. And after all it was one morning. He went on a bit of a spree. Temp ban JBK. He stepped over the line. I disagree with everything he posts but that's not why I think he needs temp banning. If he comes back and espouses hatred again, ban him. I for one won't miss him.
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Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac |
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#1532 |
Goon Squad Leader
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
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Being offensive is not ban-worthy.
Here in Washington we have a law, recently upheld, to my dismay, that permits pharmacists to refuse to dispense legal medicine to someone with a legal prescription based on a moral objection. I imagine the pharmacists would say they were offended by, perhaps, the behavior or attitudes of, you know, some people. Here's why I have a problem with that AIRQUOTE standard AIRQUOTE. One, it's utterly subjective. Even being intolerably annoying is subjective, but it is a more restrictive standard than "offensive". Do we want all offensive speech silenced? Not just ignored. Not fought against. Not refuted. Not argued into self-evident submission. Just forbidden, but just around here. I say no. Two, that kind of rule cuts both ways, and it's *sharp*. Apparently, JBK finds *your* position offensive. When the shoe's on the other foot, there is no call for you to be kicked out. Why isn't there a call for you to be banned by the same standard "offensiveness" Is that the right response? I say no. You said in another thread that one mitigating fact about mercy's comments was his contrition; that he "learned" about/from the offensiveness of his remarks. If teaching dwellars to be better people is the laudable, if Sisyphean goal, then banning JBK doesn't further your efforts toward that goal. *** Dana Rivers of hateful speech have flowed through the cellar, rivers whose headwaters are still here. I think selective banning is just a different shade of the same stupid prejudice being shown by JBK's homophobic remarks. And we absolutely *DO* make judgments about the ... importance of all kinds of remarks including hateful ones. As a student of language you know well the value of tone and context in all kinds of communication. Maybe I have been inattentive to this "kill kill kill" comments, but a quick search of the cellar returns over 45 thousand instances of "kill". That is many metric fucktons of evidence for banning. Really?
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Be Just and Fear Not. |
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#1533 | |
We have to go back, Kate!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
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I think you and I may have a slightly different attitude to the matter of 'free speech' and 'hate speech'.
If someone on this board said: I dunno, sometimes I feel like going out and lynching a nigger - I would want that person banned. Temporarily or permanently. I do not believe anybody has the 'right' to publish something like that on a public forum. What they say to each other in the privacy of their own homes is their own business, but this is a privately owned, publicly accessible forum where words are left permanently on show. I do, however, take your point about the potential for learning. Which is why I agree that a temporary ban might be fairer.
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#1534 | ||||
We have to go back, Kate!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
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In Europe the baseline for hate speech laws is the impact they have on society more generally that underlies what is considered unacceptable. Quote:
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Now, in this case I have two immediate and instinctive responses to JBKlyde: a) that's unacceptable, you've hurt a friend, and b) that's unacceptable, that breaches my understanding of what is and is not appropriate / legal in messageboard communication and represents a wider social danger by the dissemination of hate speech.
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#1535 |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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If you silence them, the FBI/DHS internet filters can't ferret them out before they actually act.
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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#1536 |
The Un-Tuckian
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Central...KY that is
Posts: 39,517
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I don't particularly give a damn one way or the other, but...
If Unca gets banned for being Unca, I think a lot of us have to be banned, because some of us have done worse than Unca or JB. And I said "us", cuz I personally have done worse more than a few times. And some of us have been FAR FAR FAR worse than either JB or Unca, for a much longer span of time. That said, I'm sure they're is a population of Dwellars who would like to see me go, too. ![]() ETA: I've missed JB's display of 'hate speech'. If someone could/would point me to that, so I could opine for myself, I'd appreciate it. PM if you'd rather.
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#1537 |
The Un-Tuckian
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Central...KY that is
Posts: 39,517
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Also, 'Free Speech' means everybody, even the people you/we disagree with.
Now...if he's hating on fat guys w/ponytails...we're gonna have prollums.
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#1538 | |||
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
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"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt |
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#1539 | |||
Goon Squad Leader
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
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for the second point, I was responding to the clamor over the "offensiveness" of JBK's remarks and trying to illustrate the weakness, difficulty and danger of such a standard as justification for banning. "You offend me, you must be banned."--we don't want to go there.
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Be Just and Fear Not. |
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#1540 | |
Goon Squad Leader
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 27,063
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Be Just and Fear Not. |
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#1541 | ||
We have to go back, Kate!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
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#1542 |
Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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"QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS SITE" Why the ƒuck hasn't JBKlyde been banned as shit, and erased from the history books? FUCK THIS GUY.
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****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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#1543 | |
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
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"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt |
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#1544 |
Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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I've felt sorry for him, and tried to be understanding and all that, but there is a limit.
Letting someone say the things he has said, with no consequences... that isn't kind. Unacceptable things should not be accepted.
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****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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