The Real Mitt Romney

[Adak]

Welcome, Sam!

I remember the days when many of my and everyone else's liberties and freedom was guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Along came 9/11 and the Republican administration then in power pushed through the so-called Patriot Acts and the creation of Homeland "Security." ... the Republicans LOWERED taxes and added insult to injury by awarding lucrative contracts to defense contracters who were in bed with the upper echelons of Republican politicians and the Department of Defense, Pentagon, Chief's of Staff, etc. Can anyone say Halliburten or Dick Chaney or Karl Rove or or or?

Don't think of Bush as a true conservative. He was not. And yeah, he lied badly to us about the war, but I knew that before we started it. I'm not sad to see Saddam gone (and his sons), but the lies I won't forgive Bush for - and for his over-spending, and stopping most stem cell research.

We probably needed a Homeland Security, but not the behemoth of agencies we have in it. We needed a patriot act, but not the removal of so many of our rights.

Halliburton is a tough call, because you can't get many companies to do, what Halliburton did, on such short notice, and on that massive a scale, in a country where the employees are likely to be mortared and shot at.

Lowering taxes, can also increase the velocity of money in the private sector, which can bring in MORE tax income to the gov't. I know it's non-intuitive, but it can happen. Depends on the situation.

Of course, the defense contractors were in bed with Cheney, he was the former Secretary of Defense, during Desert Storm. Nobody knew more about what the military would need in Iraq, than Cheney. Like him or not, he knew his stuff -- which Bush needed.

Ancient history,, perhaps, but it's brought us to where we are today. Oh, and let's not forget the big financial bailout of all those crooked CEOs and bankers specializing in sub prime lending instruments, etc., etc. These corporate criminals tanked the US economy and you and I had the "freedom" of paying for their get out of jail free cards. Was so much as one criminal financier called to account for his actions? Did a single one go to trial or spend time in prison for the crimes that were committed against the American people? Don't everybody all answer at once.

There were a few, but the BIGGEST figures, were politicians, and of course, they never go to jail for being stupid liars.

Why didn't a single Federal prosecutor bring charges against these charlatans who practically drove our country to its knees? I blame both parties for this. No high ranking politician was going to risk PAC money or other campaign contributions or the incredible goodies handed out by the lobbiests for the country's financial low lifes.

A few did go to jail, but the biggest impact has been the suit against the big banks. Bank of America bought out Countrywide (which was a HUGE source of sub prime mortgages), and now the feds are just beginning their suit for 1 Billion dollars, but which will extend to cover civil claims as well, apparently.

Reuters claims BofA, Countrywide and it's subsidiaries accounted for a total of 57 Billion dollars in toxic loans!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89N17120121024

Several banks have already settled similar suits.

And how about the outsourcong of American jobs? Remember Apple? Remember when it was the quintensential American success story? Until it discovered China that is.

Sure. All started with the Free Trade Agreement, IIRC, way back when. Trade treaties since then have extended it, like NAFTA.

It has the plus that we can buy a lot of stuff, very cheaply, but the downside is, we lose our manufacturing jobs -- gone.

Yes, it's like a work camp in the Gulag - but with high tech products.

By definition, it is free trade, but "free" means something entirely different to a Communist country.

The US joins in the party by actually giving tax breaks to US corporations who export US jobs overseas. There is no system of tariffs that has any teeth which protects American manufacturing the way Chinese products are protected. BTW, is there any American manufacturing left? I guess we still make a few car parts and your pal, Romney objects to even that.

Support your argument that Romney objects to car parts being made here. You lost it there, Sam. Simply a lie.

I agree that we need serious election reform, to remove the big $$$$'s from whether a candidate can run a successful campaign or not, for office.

I've been through several big earthquakes. FEMA was never around when you needed them. They are swamped by anything big, immediately, and pretty useless, actually.

Learn to rely on yourself and your friends and community, in an emergency. Don't be dependent on the gov't! They won't probably be there.

You, oh grasshopper, want efficiency in your government programs? According to the non partisen Center on Budet and Tax Priorities the social safety net programs account for - get this - 13 percent of the entire United States budget. The most expensive programs are social security and defense - both coming in at 20 percent. Now you want to tell me that there's no waste in defense spending? Pardon me while I go find a place to die laughing - maybe I'll just join all those old people and disabled folks that were turned out to starve or die of exposure or die due to lack of medical treatment, so you and your mad hatter hosted tea party could save a a lousey 13% by killing (yes, killing) the most vulnerable members of our population. Meanwhile, Halliburten et al will be shoveling krugerands into their secret off shore accounts and people like members of the Bin Laden family will be secretly spirited away to continue their lives of wealth and priviledge, not to mention well placed campaign contributions.

Social safety net programs, account for 13% of our entire budget?

Really?? You're off the track again, Sam! (will cover in a subsequent post, this one is getting way too long already).

I have nothing but contempt for the current crop of Republicans who can't be bothered to study even recent history, are to lazy to use common logic, and are all too eager to literally destroy thousands of their fellow citizens because they want to buy a cheap i-pad under whatever outrageous terms Apple may demand and FSM forbid that some rich bitch in a gated community have her taxes go up by even 2 cents

PS. And you think the Republicans tromping around in your bedroom is LESS intrusive government?

A lot of Republicans aren't conservative. They are "whatever's", they need to be, to be elected, and they live in a conservative part of the country.

Both Bush Presidents were that way - not conservative, and not pragmatic in many ways. The worst was the lie to drag us into Iraq, and then to keep us supporting Iraq and Afghanistan for 10 years.

We can't afford to be doing that.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Ted Kennedy? Please- a sad case of a sad drunk who crashed his car while driving drunk, and left his date to die, while he sobered up for several hours before reporting the accident. A truly despicable man. He could give a good speech, however. Fine speaker when he was sober.

A perverse liar (ie the worst example of a politician) completely ignores the point. You again demonstrate how a Tea Party Limbaugh supporter thinks . Despicable.

Romney said he was more liberal than Ted Kennedy. Since lying to yourself, you must ignore that reality. Even take cheap shots at Kennedy.

An honest reply without a cheapshot attitude means you explain why Romney even said he was more liberal than Ted Kennedy. A liar does what a liar must do. Ignore that fact. Take cheapshots. Even call benchmark conservatives (ie Lugar) a liberal.

When do we see calls for internment camps for Muslims? We now have a new benchmark for liar. You. Or would you instead explain why Romney said he was more liberal than Ted Kennedy? I doubt it. Please prove me wrong by answering the again posted question, as any honest person would.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Adak

Welcome, Sam!

Don't think of Bush as a true conservative. He was not. And yeah, he lied badly to us about the war, but I knew that before we started it. I'm not sad to see Saddam gone (and his sons), but the lies I won't forgive Bush for - and for his over-spending, and stopping most stem cell research.

I am in complete agreement with you here!

Originally Posted by Adak

Halliburton is a tough call, because you can't get many companies to do, what Halliburton did, on such short notice, and on that massive a scale, in a country where the employees are likely to be mortared and shot at.

What? You can't get many companies to rake in money hand over fist while taking advantage of insider favoratism?

FORTUNE Magazine – In an age of ugly symbols, a handful of companies have come to serve as shorthand for what's wrong with corporate America. In 2004, Halliburton moved to the top of the roster.

Mention its name and images flash: Vice President Dick Cheney bestowing fat, no-bid contracts on the company he once ran; a giant corporation engaged in shameless war profiteering--charging outrageous prices to provide fuel for Iraqis and meals for American troops. Halliburton became a punch line, as when Tonight Show host Jay Leno noted that Saddam Hussein was captured with $750,000 in cash on him. "They think," Leno explained, "that he was trying to buy three gallons of gas from Halliburton."

Originally Posted by Adak

There were a few, but the BIGGEST figures, were politicians, and of course, they never go to jail for being stupid liars.

Please name names. I have studied this subject intensively and have yet to come across a report of ANYONE actually called to account for their criminal activities. I would be heartened if even one of those scoundrels had to be responsible for his actions. I eagerly await your reply. Really

Originally Posted by Adak

Support your argument that Romney objects to car parts being made here. You lost it there, Sam. Simply a lie.

Oh?

Romney’s stance on bailing out the Ohio auto industry has been extremely controversial with each party offering different versions of Romney’s stance at the time. This is what the Washington Post had to say on the subject:

When the auto industry faced collapse, Mitt Romney turned his back. Even the conservative Detroit News criticized Romney for his “wrong-headedness” on the bailout. And now, after Romney’s false claim of Jeep outsourcing to China, Chrysler itself has refuted Romney’s lie. The truth? Jeep is adding jobs in Ohio. Mitt Romney on Ohio jobs: Wrong then. Dishonest now.

As I wrote here the other day, the Obama campaign views the auto-bailout as a stark black and white case that dramatizes one of the most basic questions voters ask themselves: Who can they really trust to fight for them and to be on their side when it matters?
Back when Ohio needed the auto industry bailed out — and Obama took the politically risky step of proceeding with the rescue — Romney took the politically easy position.

Attacking it was a good way to pander to conservatives in advance of the GOP primary. But then, when this position became problematic for him in the general election, he began to dissemble about it, falsely suggesting he’d supported government action up front when that’s simply not what happened. With time running out, Romney has run out of answers on the auto-bailout, and has now turned to the claim that it will result in American Jeep jobs getting shipped to China. That isn’t true either http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...6a24_blog.html

Originally Posted by Adak

I've been through several big earthquakes. FEMA was never around when you needed them. They are swamped by anything big, immediately, and pretty useless, actually.

Learn to rely on yourself and your friends and community, in an emergency. Don't be dependent on the gov't! They won't probably be there.

Honey, this ain’t my first rodeo either. My current cynicism regarding the government knows no bounds. Most of the members here know that I suffer from a disability which prevents me from working in my old profession and makes it difficult for me to train for different employment. Anyhow, I eventually had no choice but to go on SSDI disability. The amount I get is so small that I must depend on a housing voucher for my apartment and I get my medical treatment through Medicaid. And I have made some progress. But without help – well, forget it.

My case is not an isolated one. Many Americans are living in situations like mine. The private funds are just not available to help us. Churches, etc. lend what assistance they can but it’s only a bit here and there.

Now I have a question for you that I would be very interested in getting a serious thoughtful answer to. Here it is:

Take a population which is already suffering from a severe disability or illness – traumatic brain injury, advanced MS, quadriplegics, etc. Now turn those people out of their homes to deal with the elements as best they can. Imagine how a quadriplegic or a brain injured person will deal with a drunk with a knife at a homeless shelter. Imagine how quickly a person with schizophrenia will go downhill without their medication. Think about an individual who is already severely ill being faced with the specter of malnourishment and hunger on a daily basis.

Really think about such people. Imagine what they face. What do you think their ultimate fate will be? Cause and effect. Many of these people will die. They will die on the streets and allies and behind the municipal buildings in our cities.

In rural areas they will dies quickly from exposure since few shelters are available in rural America. Some will make rough camps and die there. Some will die in their cars on some lonely dirt road. I am not being dramatic. I have 2 college degrees – one in biology. I know very well what will happen to a population of deer or small mammals or lynx or whatever that is subjected to a similar situation/environment.

So, what is your value system? Does human life matter to you, or would you rather stride through America’s cities as you might those of Brasil – stepping over the sick and dying? Or do you want to look for alternative solutions? Raise taxes on the wealthy even just by 5%
Better than nothing. Get rid of wasteful defense spending. Did you know that almost every military installation both here and abroad had a well manicured golf course? Do we really need frills like that? And Halliburton was the ONLY firm chosen to bid on US defense contracts at the time of the Iraq War. Why not throw the bidding open to all? Isn’t competition what America is supposed to be all about? Might just save some money while we’re at it.

Unfortunately, I am pessimistic about many of the American people and especially our politicians of both parties. A while back a crowd at a Republican rally actually applauded at the thought of people without health insurance just being left to die. Are we headed for social Darwinism? Wouldn’t surprise me.

Meanwhile, I’ve been collecting official military manuals on survival, escape, and evasion in a variety of conditions. Interesting stuff.

Social safety net programs, account for 13% of our entire budget?

Really?? You're off the track again, Sam! (will cover in a subsequent post, this one is getting way too long already)..

The 13% figure for gov’t spending I gave is correct. Check the link provided.

[Lamplighter]

Please name names. I have studied this subject intensively and have yet
to come across a report of ANYONE actually called to account for their criminal activities.
I would be heartened if even one of those scoundrels had to be responsible for his actions.

I eagerly await your reply. Really

Adek doesn't respond to this sort of request.
But here is one to warm the cockles of your heart.

[skip forward to about 0:45 and to 1:15 sec]

[SamIam]

Thanks, Lamplighter. I guess that's something. But "flawed thinking"? Those financial criminals were thinking just fine - "Hey! We could rake in billions if we just fudge a few little numbers here and there and maybe over there..." And then the bastards got end of year bonuses! Incredible!

[Adak]

The biggest fish in the sub prime market was Countrywide Financial Services. They were *unbelievable*.

Their founder and CEO was Angelo Mozilo, and he was fined 67.5Million by the SEC, but because of an indemnity clause in his contract, BankofAmerica (which bought Countrywide), will have to pay some part of that amount.

By agreeing to that, he avoided a trial, and they never went after him for fraud (which carries up to a long 30 year sentence in Federal law for business fraud), and a fine.

A guy in Florida went to prison (he caused the nations sixth largest bank to collapse). A few others as well are listed here:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient...w=1280&bih=653

You are correct on the Fedral welfare percentage IF you don't include Social Security - which is both money that people have earned, and also money that they are receiving unearned. (or welfare ). So the percentage varies between 11% at the lowest, to about 30% at the highest, depending on what you call "Welfare".

Another thought came to me as I was looking that up: "What about the Farming subsidies?". if a farmer is paid NOT to grow a crop. Is that welfare? Technically no, but realistically, yes.

In any case, looking even at the lower figures, it's easy to see from this graph, that our percentage of welfare spending is increasing at an alarming rate. Obama care will increase that dramatically - but again, only part of it will be welfare, the rest will be paid for.



Good discussion Sam, but we need to keep our posts shorter. I had to edit out quite a bit, just to fit the last big post of mine, in under the forum limit.

[SamIam]

Wait! What? A forum limit? When did that happen? I though you could just post away until anyone who chanced to glance at what you wrote fell over sideways at their desk from boredom. Or else their computer froze on the NSFW site just as the boss wandered in. But what do I know? Oh, I did learn how to build a snare for a rabbit out of my Marine Survival Handbook. Those jar heads are pretty clever. Hope I can meet up with some when the time comes. Hey! We need a rabbit smilie. Guess this elk head will have to do until we get one.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by SamIam

My case is not an isolated one. Many Americans are living in situations like mine. The private funds are just not available to help us. Churches, etc. lend what assistance they can but it’s only a bit here and there.

That's because you aren't a Mormon.

There has always been a 10,000 character limit per post.

[Adak]

@SamIam: Knock off the names, or the conversation is just bull shit name calling.

This is crap, of course. This was earlier in the campaign, when all the newspapers were solidly Obama fans.

Of course they hated Romney's take on it, because it hurt the Unions, who now are the owners of GM, along with the Feds. What a surprise, eh?

A guy like Romney will want the business to go through bankruptcy, and get restructured, and come out a stronger company. I have not however, heard Romney say what his own preferences would have been for GM. Romney couldn't have any impact on it, anyway. It was Obama's decision to make.

Rescuing GM was the EASIEST political decision, ever made. That's usually the problem with these kinds of decisions. No one wants to see the anguish of doing something RIGHT, so they do the EASY, and then it winds up being a short cut - you know, like the one the Donner party took, over the Sierra Mtns.

I'm quite a fan and proud owner of GM trucks over the years, but I doubt I'll buy another one.

You want a sharp contrast? Contrast the oil and gas drilling going on in Ohio, on private land, with the oil and gas drilling in Ohio that Obama will allow, on Federal land. The US would be a bigger producer of oil and gas, than Saudi Arabia, IF Obama would quit blocking it.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's because you aren't a Mormon.

There has always been a 10,000 character limit per post.

Yeah, I know. Members of the Mormon Church around here get all sorts of help when they need it. I was thinking of converting, but I think I have to attain the status of Celestial Being or something before I could get on the REAL goodies the Mormons hand out. Either that or become some old fart's 9th wife. Henry VIII should have had it so good.

How many pages is 10,000 characters?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Just write what you want and if it's more than 10k it will tell you, also it will tell how big it is. Then you split it into two posts and you're good to go.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Adak

@SamIam: Knock off the names, or the conversation is just bull shit name calling.

What names? Jar Heads? Bastards? Grasshopper?

Gang of Four? Crooked?

Wow! I'm really, really sorry to have used such language. The mods should have banned me by now.

Hey, wait till you read a post by Urbane Guerilla! You'll adore HIS vocabulary!

[Adak]

This is VERY cynical stuff. Of course human life matters to me. What a question to ask!

You can tax the rich until they're absolutely broke and destitute, and it won't allow our politicians to spend all the money they want to spend. They buy votes, by spending our money, you see. "You want a bridge to nowhere? Sure, the Feds will buy you one - but be sure to vote for me come November!"

Is that what you want? You want a monetary crisis on the US dollar? You want to see inflation (which will be coming around eventually), ripping apart everybody on fixed incomes?

Because that's where we're headed.

I don't know where you got the idea that Conservatives would have this kind of calamity for the poor and disabled, but you have it quite twisted around.

Because after the liberals spend us into oblivion, they'll be the first one's to jump freely over your lifeless corpse, as they scramble for some crust of bread to eat.

Liberals care a lot about helping the poor. Conservatives care a lot about helping people, NOT become or stay, poor.

So, what is your value system? Does human life matter to you, or would you rather stride through America’s cities as you might those of Brasil – stepping over the sick and dying? Or do you want to look for alternative solutions? Raise taxes on the wealthy even just by 5%
Better than nothing. Get rid of wasteful defense spending. Did you know that almost every military installation both here and abroad had a well manicured golf course? Do we really need frills like that? And Halliburton was the ONLY firm chosen to bid on US defense contracts at the time of the Iraq War. Why not throw the bidding open to all? Isn’t competition what America is supposed to be all about? Might just save some money while we’re at it.

Halliburton had a hard job, and they could NOT fail. As a former CEO, Cheney could make Halliburton jump through the air and do a double back flip, at the same time. He knows all the officers and the guys and gals to go to, to get things expedited RIGHT NOW.

I'm not sure any other company could have done what Halliburton did, in that same time frame, in Iraq. I don't blame Halliburton - they performed well, under trying conditions. And i don't blame Cheney, since OF COURSE, he knew exactly how to get things done with them. It was expensive, but we knew it would be. Heaven knows, you can't work in Iraq, on the cheap. We saw lots of contractors who were killed even though they had bodyguards, didn't we?

Normally, I'd say yes, it certainly should have been bid out, but in the time frame we had for Iraq, I believe it might have been necessary.

However, I am not even aware of all the services that Halliburton supplied for the military and contractor personnel in Iraq. And is there some reference point for comparing the cost of supplying those services, in a war zone like Iraq?

I don't have that info. Without it, how can anyone make a comparison? So I choose to reserve judgment on Halliburton in Iraq.

[Adak]

Oh, people can use all the foul language they want, but they'll just get mostly the same from me.

So what good can come of that, really?

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

Oh, people can use all the foul language they want, but they'll just get mostly the same from me.

So what good can come of that, really?

But but but before you edited your post you said it was 'honey' that you considered name calling.



Come on schmoopy lovie-kins sweetie-pie...give me the same back. I'm starved for affection. Starved, I tell you.

I need some affection handouts.