Guerrilla marketting through sham forum accts

[Riddil]

It was my old college days the last time I could claim to be a "gamer", but I still like to keep up with penny-arcade. Welp, Tycho has had an interesting discussion the past couple days. He posts a few emails from folks that outline "guerrilla marketting" companies that will hire people to create dozens of different identities on forums all over the web with the expressed intent to drub up support for whatever their firm is pushing.

Personally I find it unethical. Forums are a great escape to be able to bleed your innermost thoughts... things you couldn't share with friends or family. And you can get away with it becaue here you're not "Jane Doe", you're "Ann Nyalator".

But the thought that other people out there are "false" identities, planted to simply build "cred" on the forum by planting replies, and building personalities... well... it seems a little unethical.

So anyhow! There's only a few forums I respect, even though I tend to lurk here 99.98% of the time. But, since it's one of the few where I actually respect the discussion that goes on, I think it's fitting to bring it up. The cellar really helped me pull through a... tumultuous time right after a break-up. So, what are your thoughts? Think that the cellar has been "infiltrated"? And if so... does it matter?

*ponder*

[glatt]

Of course the Cellar has been infiltrated.

"Hey guys, I found this website (that sells crap.) What do you think? I think it's..."

Does it matter? Yes.

I don't know how to fight it, other than calling people out when they start posting spam on their first day.

There have been plenty of links to commercial sites by long time posters. I have no problem with them.

I'm not sure how to distinguish the two, but it has to do with the quality of the posts and the history the dwellar builds here before posting to commercial sites. One is natural and real. The other is fake and forced.

[Skunks]

For example, I suspect that this is all a sham for the company marketing sham forum acts as a means of marketing. In a few days, Riddil is going to come back and be all, "well, y'know, I've given it some thought and I think I'm okay with the idea now, so I did a trial run and I think it worked. But sometimes, when I'm in bed at night, I'm not sure I'm so entirely okay with the concept. What do you guys think?"

[glatt]

Paranoia, the destroya.
-The Kinks.

[Cyclefrance]

Take the point, but the law of returns suggests that, unless you have a forum running into thousands of active participants, the gain in return for effort is going to be far too low to make these forays by the spam merchants anywhere near being cost-effective.

The odd ones I have stumbled on have tended to be fairly amateur attempts - often one-liners that have doubtful association with the thread content. It would take the perpetrator a lot of time to build up credibility that might hide his/her ultimate goal.

I think most of us would be wise to anyone who suddenly started spouting the merits of this or that supplier and/or certain brands of goods - a series of newcomers suddenly communicating about how great a particular product was would also put most of us on to amber alert if not red - maybe I am being overly naive, or else I'm over-naturally suspicious. If I get caught out I'll let you know.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm not sure how to distinguish the two, but it has to do with the quality of the posts and the history the dwellar builds here before posting to commercial sites. One is natural and real. The other is fake and forced.

The difference is simple...if a new shill comes on the list and starts squawking about Product X, he's trying to make money. If I've been on the list for a few years and start squawking about Product X, it is likely that I was impressed by it and thought it might prove to be useful information for someone else in need of that sort of product. No matter what happens, *I* don't profit from the exchange, except perhaps if someone else tries it, likes it, and thinks me insightful and astute as a result. Not that this will happen, but I'm just sayin'...

[Riddil]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Take the point, but the law of returns suggests that, unless you have a forum running into thousands of active participants, the gain in return for effort is going to be far too low to make these forays by the spam merchants anywhere near being cost-effective.

That's my point!! If you look at the actually number of "views" for any given forum post... on most forums it's well below 100. The number of click-throughs for your ad sham would be some number 100 or lower. But I think the reality is that it doesn't MATTER. If these marketting firms find a way to make their clients believe it's a huge return by presenting a hundred glossy excel charts... it doesn't matter if it actually makes money or not. If there's a client paying for it, it'll happen.

The problem with the true guerrilla posters is that their goal is to actually *infiltrate* the community. They don't come in with one-liners, they hang around and build a whole new identity. It may take them a month or two before they start shilling. Then what these blokes do is get 50-100 different forums where they're established... then *blam*, they hit them all with their prepared schtick.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe those people are just as "real" as any other forum entity. I guess you could call it the new grass-roots campaigning method. The reason I don't like it is b/c it stinks of deceit. If I watch a commercial on TV and it proclaims, "Buy from mywebsite.com, fast, safe, secure shipping!", it's in one ear, out the other. But if someone I "trust" from a forum says the same thing, I might run out and buy from mywebsite.com, thinking it's a good product. But the reality could be that the site is trash, and they've just bought a new grass-roots ad campaign to bring back customers... and their product is still trash.

It's honestly going to get to the point where you can't trust *anyone* online. The only thing you'll be able to measure a product by are those aggregrate ratings that thousands of people vote on. Sucks.

Originally Posted by Skunks

For example, I suspect that this is all a sham for the company marketing sham forum acts as a means of marketing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Aw, damn it Riddil, I had them all set up so I could retire on snake oil sales.
I think in this community is not as big a worry because it would stand out as pretty abnormal, but yes it sucks to have to put up with that kind of Republican trick.

[richlevy]

You've also not counted on legitimate community members who might sell out to advertisers, much as columnists have lately sold out to lawyers (Scrunchy) or various government agencies.

Cellar members with posts past 2000 like me might make a bit of money on endorsements or even 'product placement'.

As I sit here typing into my Compaq, eating a delicious Hershey bar with a refreshing Coca-Cola, I of course shudder to consider the kind of person who would do something like that.

[BigV]

Wow, richlevy! Funny, on topic, self-referential, disarming and you made money from three clients in one three sentence post.

I couldn't hold a candle to you.

:bows:

[Cyclefrance]

Forum ad placement... hmmm, see what you mean... like, over in the corner there, top left of this item and only detectable by the peripheral area of vision is.... no, I'd better not say, the whole idea is for subliminal detection after all, but I'm sure you' ll enjoy its rich milk chocolate exterior, that creamy light centre, and the walnut on top (damn, have I given it away now - might just scrape through unnoticed yet still cerebrally recorded...)

[Cyclefrance]

Oh, dear....!

[SteveDallas]

Originally Posted by richlevy

As I sit here typing into my Compaq, eating a delicious Hershey bar with a refreshing Coca-Cola, I of course shudder to consider the kind of person who would do something like that.

Gosh, I hope my purchase of two different models of Nikon digital camera doesn't look too suspicious.

[Riddil]

Iiiinteresting point. Maybe it's just my belief in the innocence of the 'net that's really flawed. Like the good Bruce said... in a "developed" forum a true sham would stand out, no matter how embedded the subverter. But all you have to do is look at once neutral websites like toms-hardware or [insert random game e-zine] to realize that the web is completely free of those nagging "morality of neutrality" mandates that everyone claims newspapers and TV should have.

Yet if you don't want spoon-fed marketting speak, you go to those websites for your info.

So the next question: is the web turning us all into cynics?

PS: When I really want to research a topic, I trust wiki far more than any other source. It helps that browsing on my sleek and stylish Thinkpad X41 Tablet is always a joy. And remember kids, drink Ovaltine.

[Elspode]

The problem is that *everything* is now a legitimate venue for advertising. At the movies, you used to get a newsreel, two cartoons and a feature film. The trailers were advertising, sure, but I *like* knowing what films are coming out down the road. Anticipation can be fun.

Nowadays, you pay $8 - $12 to get into a theater, and you are bombarded with advertising from the moment you pass through the doors. Does anyone remember anymore that the movie screen used to be blank - often covered by curtains - until the trailers started up? Then some bright boy decided that anyone sitting in a theater seat was a potential consumer, and now you see ads right up to the beginning of the feature. Then, you see product placement *in* the feature. There are ads in bathroom stalls and *in* urinals, on vehicles, stitched onto people's clothes to sell more clothes, printed on magnets stuck to your refrigerator and printed on little pieces of paper stuck into your box of cereal. Hell, there have even been a couple of attempts to initiate space-borne advertising by orbiting gigantic display devices of varying descriptions so that you cannot even look at the stars without thinking of Coca-Cola or Viagra.

Andy Warhol had it right when he portrayed Campbells soup cans as artworks...the line between art and consumerism has been totally erased. Humanity has been reduced to consumers by people whose only purpose in life is to move money from your pockets to theirs.