Kenya in Crisis

Aliantha · 01-01-2008, 07:26 PM

After recent elections in Kenya, domestic strife is out of control which this article describes in detail.

Quote:

Civil war fears amid Kenyan violence
By Africa correspondent Andrew Geoghegan

Posted 1 hour 17 minutes ago
Updated 54 minutes ago

Slideshow: Photo 1 of 2

Mob attack: A man stands beside the burnt remains of the burned-out Kenya Assemblies of God Church (AFP)

Audio: Civil war fears after Church massacre (AM) Audio: Australian trapped in Kenyan home as violence worsens (AM) Related Story: Kenya reels after church massacre Fear of a civil war is gripping Kenya as fights between rival tribes over the disputed re-election of the country's president go from bad to worse.

In a normally peaceful town in the west of the country, hundreds of people were hiding in a church when a mob attacked. Those seeking shelter were beaten before the church was torched.

More than 50 people are believed to have burned to death. Many were children.

Pastor Jackson Nyanga says he witnessed the atrocity.

"After the elections people were attacking one another, and in part of that church people had gathered from different places for their security," he said.

"After torching the church, children died, around 25 in number, four elderly people, and many people who tried to confront them while injured."

Pastor Nyanga himself is in a critical condition.

"They are scared, they are frightened. In fact, they tried to run for their safety," he said.

More than 70,000 Kenyans have fled their homes as they try to escape the election-related violence.

The Kenyan Red Cross is describing it as a national disaster.

Is it Rwanda all over again, and will the international community once again sit by and let it happen?

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Is it Rwanda all over again, and will the international community once again sit by and let it happen?

I don't know, is the UN involved? If yes, then it is possible there will be a genocide.

Aliantha · 01-01-2008, 07:41 PM

Why would you say that?

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Why would you say that?

During Rawanda's Genocide the UN and Madame Albright knew all about it and sat back and watched it happen. some 800,000 people were hacked to death, stabbed, and burned to death in a peroid of about 4 months. The UN is an inept organization that sucks up US tax payer dollars {IMHO}.

Ibby · 01-01-2008, 07:52 PM

So... rwanda would have been better WITHOUT the UN?
Kenya will be better WITHOUT the UN?

I can buy the argument that the UN isn't gonna do jack shit, but i dont buy it that they'll actually make it worse.

busterb · 01-01-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

The UN is an inept organization that sucks up US, any money tax payer dollars

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

So... rwanda would have been better WITHOUT the UN?
Kenya will be better WITHOUT the UN?

I can buy the argument that the UN isn't gonna do jack shit, but i dont buy it that they'll actually make it worse.

Everyone would be better without the UN.

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 07:59 PM

UN admits Rwanda genocide failure

The United Nations Security Council has explicitly accepted responsibility for failing to prevent the 1994 genocide in Rwanda in which an estimated 800,000 people were killed.
In the first formal response to a report critical of the UN's role, council members acknowledged its main finding that their governments lacked the political will to stop the massacres.

Most of the 2,500 UN peacekeepers in Rwanda at the time were withdrawn after the deaths of 10 Belgian soldiers.

At a council debate, the Canadian Foreign Minister, Lloyd Axworthy, said none present could look back without remorse and sadness at the failure to help the people of Rwanda in their time of need.

Continues:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/714025.stm

Aliantha · 01-01-2008, 07:59 PM

I'm with you on this Ibram. I think Mercs summation of the situation is incorrect.

I'm aware of what happened in Rwanda and the role the UN played. At least they played a role. They did what they were supposed to do but it wasn't nearly enough. It could never be.

I don't think this should become an argument about whether or not the UN is a useful organization or not, although I would ask that if the UN did enter Kenya and create peace, would it then be seen as useful, and if so what would need to happen to ensure this outcome?

If it's not up to the UN, then should anyone in the international community step in to stop the genocide that will surely occur?

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

If it's not up to the UN, then should anyone in the international community step in to stop the genocide that will surely occur?

No, let the chips fall where they will. The US has been dragged into a number of these things and all we get is beat up by the international community. The African Union has failed to stop the killing in Darfur, the Ethiopians are in Somalia and it has been nothing but a mess. We went into Bosnia and got beat up for that as well. Let the Africans figure it out on their own. We have no business there.

Aliantha · 01-01-2008, 08:06 PM

or maybe you mean, nothing to gain by going there

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

or maybe you mean, nothing to gain by going there

Not at all. What did we gain in Bosina? How about Somalia? Oil? Slaves? what?

tw · 01-02-2008, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Not at all. What did we gain in Bosina? How about Somalia? Oil? Slaves? what?

What he means is no oil available - therefore let them burn. We hate them because they have nothing for us.

Bosnia is the perfect example of how diplomacy works and how problems should be solved. The wacko extremists among us will deny this only because they hate Clinton and Clinton showed how problems can be solved. Clinton did it right; therefore it must be wrong – the Rush Limbaugh diatribe. Use political rhetoric rather than reality to determine what to do (and then blame the UN).

Shame is that Kenya only ten years ago was a model of African stability. A nation of warm relations to and a strong attachment to America. What has changed? According to TheMercenary, we don't care. They don't have anything we need. Therefore they are scumbags who should be left to rot on their own. Amzing the contempt TheMercenary has for one of America’s closest friends.

TheMercenary has advocated hate - the real agenda of politics that even blame the UN for all world problems.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-02-2008, 12:30 AM

I see the problem as forcing two nationalistic ethnic groups in the same political state.

I have two questions. First, what can we realistically do? Second, if we did stop the genocide, would we really have solved anything?

If we do stop the killings, we are not getting rid of the conditions that led to the killings, so by just stop killings, we are just pushing back the genocide to a later date where it will probably just be even worse. Big catch 22.

01-02-2008, 02:39 AM

It’s a great pity.

I was hitch-hiking through Africa in the late 70’s and Kenya was one of the true gems of East Africa. In Nairobi an aged, white man (a remnant of the colonial times) gave me a lift in his Wolseley. He told me that he hoped he’d be dead “before the old man” (Kenyatta) because he figured that Kenyatta was the only thing standing between sanity and chaos. Maybe he was right.

01-01-2008, 07:41 PM	#3
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Why would you say that? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

01-01-2008, 07:52 PM	#5
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	So... rwanda would have been better WITHOUT the UN? Kenya will be better WITHOUT the UN? I can buy the argument that the UN isn't gonna do jack shit, but i dont buy it that they'll actually make it worse. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

01-01-2008, 07:59 PM	#8
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	UN admits Rwanda genocide failure The United Nations Security Council has explicitly accepted responsibility for failing to prevent the 1994 genocide in Rwanda in which an estimated 800,000 people were killed. In the first formal response to a report critical of the UN's role, council members acknowledged its main finding that their governments lacked the political will to stop the massacres. Most of the 2,500 UN peacekeepers in Rwanda at the time were withdrawn after the deaths of 10 Belgian soldiers. At a council debate, the Canadian Foreign Minister, Lloyd Axworthy, said none present could look back without remorse and sadness at the failure to help the people of Rwanda in their time of need. Continues: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/714025.stm __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

01-01-2008, 07:59 PM	#9
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I'm with you on this Ibram. I think Mercs summation of the situation is incorrect. I'm aware of what happened in Rwanda and the role the UN played. At least they played a role. They did what they were supposed to do but it wasn't nearly enough. It could never be. I don't think this should become an argument about whether or not the UN is a useful organization or not, although I would ask that if the UN did enter Kenya and create peace, would it then be seen as useful, and if so what would need to happen to ensure this outcome? If it's not up to the UN, then should anyone in the international community step in to stop the genocide that will surely occur? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

01-01-2008, 08:06 PM	#11
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	or maybe you mean, nothing to gain by going there __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

01-02-2008, 12:30 AM	#14
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I see the problem as forcing two nationalistic ethnic groups in the same political state. I have two questions. First, what can we realistically do? Second, if we did stop the genocide, would we really have solved anything? If we do stop the killings, we are not getting rid of the conditions that led to the killings, so by just stop killings, we are just pushing back the genocide to a later date where it will probably just be even worse. Big catch 22.

01-02-2008, 02:39 AM	#15
Aretha's doctor Guest Posts: n/a	It’s a great pity. I was hitch-hiking through Africa in the late 70’s and Kenya was one of the true gems of East Africa. In Nairobi an aged, white man (a remnant of the colonial times) gave me a lift in his Wolseley. He told me that he hoped he’d be dead “before the old man” (Kenyatta) because he figured that Kenyatta was the only thing standing between sanity and chaos. Maybe he was right.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)