Nanny State

[xoxoxoBruce]

I had posted about an incident of what appeared to be nanny state nuisance in central England. It was one of a seemingly continuous stream of stories the internet loves, from both the US and England and occasionally the colonies. The last one was in Sundae's new neighborhood and the decorations for the upcoming bicycle race so I posted it in her "West Yorkshire thread". Stories like this are usually blamed, in the articles, on "Health & Safety" over there.

Dana, Sundae, and Carruthers, explained many of the stories are bullshit, others are mistakenly blamed on Health & Safety, as it's become a catch all phrase for nanny state intervention. Carruthers pointed to this newspaper article praising the Health & Safety law for saving thousands of lives.

Forty years on, the Act has achieved what it set out to do, which is to insist upon high standards of health and safety in places of work. All we need do now is to apply the law with the common sense that inspired it in the first place.

Bingo, apply the common sense!
For a US example, the no weapons near a school laws that have led to a first/second grader being expelled for pointing a finger at a classmate, or drawing a picture of a gun. The school officials always claim they are enforcing the law and their hands are tied. I don't know if these teachers are playing Principal's pet, are brainwashed cyborgs, or afraid someone else saw it and will rat them out, rather than using common sense in the first place.

All Righty then, that long winded introduction was to let you know I started this thread for a place to park the stories of stupid shit the nanny state gets blamed for, guilty or not. Innocence shouldn't stand in the way of a good torch & pitchfork party.

[Big Sarge]

I don't worry about it anymore because I joined the masses. I sponge off the government.

[Gravdigr]

Government and common sense...

...are you seeing the problem, yet?

[tw]

Turn off a Cobalt, Sunfire, etc ignition. Then the car's steering and brakes stop working while the car flies down and off the road. Clearly that is government failure because GM ignored the problem and resulting murders for 13 years. Blame the nanny state because GM products are designed by bean counters. Lack of common sense is routine. Ie Three Mile Island, Challenger, Columbia, Fukishima, Sandusky, Mission Accomplished.

[BigV]

xoB, what a great thread topic. I am reading a book, The Rule of Nobody, by Philip Howard, which discusses at length the causes for such dysfunction and suggests solutions to the problems. His key observation points to mistrust as the root cause of such rules and that the solution must include human judgement. I am thoroughly enjoying this book.

Mr Howard says there is a political factor involved, succinctly put by the Economist:

“The Rule of Nobody is even-handed in its politics, noting that right and left have saddled America with overly detailed regulations, under pressure from special-interest lobbies (among them incumbents who see regulation as a useful barrier to new competition). One root of the problem is mistrust, Mr Howard suggests. Conservatives distrust public employees and so seek to limit their powers of discretion. The left thinks that business bosses will run amok unless bound.”

I highly recommend the book. It's a great discussion of the problem and what can be done to make things better. Of course, that's not quite as fun as pointing out stupendously ridiculous results of people following these rules. That's what this thread's for!

[Carruthers]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bingo, apply the common sense!

The trouble is Common Sense is the least common of all senses.

[Sundae]

I've had more than one customer say something like, "Ohoho, more than your job's worth?" especially about the rotisserie chickens.

Well, yes, in fact it is not worth me losing my job to give you a chicken for free rather than putting it in the bin.
And yes it's a crazy screwed up world and I've always hated waste.
But I would geniunely lose my job for gross misconduct if I gave it to you, or sold it at a nominal amount after the four hour holding time mandated in law.
The paper record is there to protect customers (it's the same in every supermarket) and can trace every batch of chickens sold from farm to fork.
(It was also used as evidence for a prosecution quite recently - falsifying documents to commit fraud, as in selling discounted items to family)

You are not starving.
You are not hiding from the Nazis in an attic.
You are shopping in a high-end supermarket.
How about I come to your workplace and ask for a minor favour that saves me about £3 and lost you your job?
Ohohohoho, who's the jobsworth now?

[BigV]

[DanaC]

Hahaha!

[DanaC]

One more:

'Nobody banned Christmas!'

[Sundae]

OMG, V!
What happened to Roseanne Barr? She went all... airbrushed.
I liked her as she was. Still, I spose it would be evil to comment if she went from thin to fat (political correctness of course) so I respect her life choices.

Also, I snickered when the final judge asked whether the comedian would top herself.
Because that would be dead funny.

Dana. You know I have trouble with names. And faces. Although rarely voices.
I so often confuse Stewart Lee of the dry Northern wit with Iain Lee, the onetime overexposed talentless Southern git who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

In all fairness I haven't seen or heard of him in years and maybe we've both matured.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Carruthers

The trouble is Common Sense is the least common of all senses.

Common sense proved power cycling an incandescent bulb causes bulb failure. After all, everyone has seen a bulb fail when powered on. Common sense.

And also called junk science. Observation without learning the underlying reasons why means common sense jumps to junk science conclusions. A concept even taught in junior high science.

A majority knew smoking increased health. It was common sense. Everyone saw proof in TV advertising. So the Surgeon General was clearly lying in 1964 when he said smoking kills.

Common sense, properly applied, means we all saw Geroge Jr was lying when he said Saddam had WMDs. Underlying hard facts and numbers said so. But most used common sense without first learning facts. Junk science, almost $3 trillion, and nearly 5000 dead Americans resulted.

Common sense can be your own worst enemy if not tempered by knowledge.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

...
For a US example, the no weapons near a school laws that have led to a first/second grader being expelled for pointing a finger at a classmate, or drawing a picture of a gun. The school officials always claim they are enforcing the law and their hands are tied. I don't know if these teachers are playing Principal's pet, are brainwashed cyborgs, or afraid someone else saw it and will rat them out, rather than using common sense in the first place.
...

Here's why that happens. Let's say first grader Johnny drew a picture of a gun, and received a less harsh punishment than was required. Weeks later, Johnny shot up his class or another student brought in a gun, because "Johnny didn't get in trouble" and the gun "went off" killing another student. Whoever did not follow procedure to the letter will have their lives ruined by criminal and civil litigation. And the laws that enable that to happen will be contrary to common sense, as will the laws that prohibit the parents of the victims from getting everything they want.

I believe that laws, to a great extent, have good intentions behind them. There are always unintended consequences.

[Clodfobble]

Nevermind what will happen if Johnny himself shoots a classmate, and it's revealed that he usually spent art class drawing nothing but guns, but nobody did anything.


The other important thing to remember is that the "our hands are tied" argument can be used to one's advantage, as well. School funding is based on actual butts in the seats on any given day. It's usually in their best interest to keep the classrooms full, and to not have to expel or suspend anyone, because you can't fire that teacher mid-year, so every child kicked out equals less money. The only reason to do it at the elementary level is if the kid is a genuine pain in the ass and using more resources than their presence affords. So say Johnny is a royal little shit, a future gang-banger with an entitled mother who shows up at the school on a weekly basis to berate the teacher for not letting Johnny get away with whatever he wants... and one day the principal sees a convenient way to get him expelled, all while claiming "our hands are tied."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Here's why that happens. Let's say first grader Johnny drew a picture of a gun, and received a less harsh punishment than was required.

Required? By whom the law or the local school board who have been empowered by the law? In trying to foretell worst case scenarios they take discretion away from principals and teachers?

I believe that laws, to a great extent, have good intentions behind them. There are always unintended consequences.

Yes and yes, that's why flexibility, common sense, is needed.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

...It's usually in their best interest to keep the classrooms full, and to not have to expel or suspend anyone, because you can't fire that teacher mid-year, so every child kicked out equals less money. The only reason to do it at the elementary level is if the kid is a genuine pain in the ass and using more resources than their presence affords.

So you're saying schools, education, is all about the bottom line. Each student judged on whether they are using more resources than they bring in?

Really, has it gotten that fucked up?