The ethics of citizenship

03-24-2004, 11:17 AM

They say evil happens when good people turn their backs and do nothing. I see the US as a country where the citizens are caught between complacency on the one hand and dispair on the other. Abuses of the people by the system are widespread and flagrant. Yet when one speaks out, one is generally regarded as some extremist whacko or told that "you can't fight city hall." Perhaps its true that we have lost so many freedoms that an individual no longer CAN fight city hall. What is the ethical response in the face of such indifference on the part of the government and its people? Is it still possible to effect a change for the good in this country? Should one even try?

lumberjim · 03-24-2004, 11:24 AM

* kicks the soap box over to Radar*
you do it

smoothmoniker · 03-24-2004, 12:34 PM

i have sneaking suspicion that most people think they're rational, slightly smarter than the average bear, and well informed.

They believe that other rational people, if they have the same information, will believe the same things they believe. Yet when they give out a cry for social revolution or government reformation, they are faced with an overwhelming lack of response. They blame this on social apathy, on a hostile culture, on the right-wing radio networks, on the left-wing news networks, etc.

What they never stop to consider is that maybe the reason there's no response is because a vast majority of people disagree with them. I don't think the US is a country caught between complacency and despair. I think a vast segment of the population thinks that things are going well, that 95 out of a 100 of their friends are employed, that they are enjoying the same freedoms they have had their whole lifetime, that their home is increasing in value, and that the places where the system breaks down are by-and-large inconveniences (DMV) not glaring monuments of social injustice (Dred Scott). They believe that this country has a pretty good track record of correcting it's flaws and returning to center.

-sm

Telefunken · 03-24-2004, 12:48 PM

Cherish freedom. Never trade freedom for security.

smoothmoniker · 03-24-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Telefunken
Never trade freedom for security.

I appreciate the idea, but that's a bit far-reaching to accept as a normative principle. I trade away my freedom to keep all of my money in exchance for the security of a police force. I trade away my freedom to drive 130 mph in a residential zone for the security of knowing that no one else can either.

Most significantly, I trade away the utter freedom of being a "natural man" for the security of living in community.

Perhaps you had some more specific freedoms in minds?

-sm

03-24-2004, 04:25 PM

I give you the following statistics from US government web sites without further comment:

43.6 million Americans were without health coverage in 2002 (The most recent year for which I could find statistics), an increase of 2.4 million from the year before.

According to the measurement technique used, anywhere between 12.1% to 20.4% of all Americans now live below the poverty line. 50% of those aged 65 and up live below the poverty line, as well as 17% of this nation’s children under age 6. http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/p...r&dtable5.html

The Justice Department’s Bureau of Statistics announced that while the US accounts for just 5% of the global population, 25% of the world’s prisoners are held in American prisons. On any given day, nearly one in eight black males aged 20 to 34 are in jail or prison. . About a quarter million mentally impaired inmates are also incarcerated in the nation's prisons.

Last year, the U.S. trade deficit was 4.5 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). In 2002, the trade deficit was 4.0 percent of GDP, and in 2001, it was 3.5 percent. Meanwhile, to give the example of just one Asian country, Korea’s trade with the world reached $373 billion during 2003, an 18.6 percent increase over 2002. During this period, Korea’s exports totaled $194 billion, an increase of 19.6 percent, and imports were $179 billion, an increase of 17.5 percent. As a result, Korea had a trade surplus of $15.5 billion, up from $10.3 billion in 2002. In 2003 U.S. trade imports from Korea totaled $37.0 billion, an increase of 3.9 percent from the year before.

http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/o...ve/current.pdf

There, there now. You just go back to sleep and don’t worry your pretty little head. The wolf will be at the door in the morning.

Undertoad · 03-24-2004, 04:43 PM

Quick note on the poverty numbers... I'm pretty sure I fall into the 20% category by not paying myself any actual income.

And I live in a plush house in the burbs with equity and everything, and have never been in danger of losing it.

This year my accountant says I should pay myself, so I will enter into a new government category, no longer "chronically unemployed" because I will send them tax money from a paycheck.

But I've not been actually unemployed; I've been self-employed. Maybe underemployed, but during most of it I wasn't looking for work.

And when I pay myself I'll still have the same amount of cash, because before I paid myself I took money out of the corporation as equity payments.

That's why the poverty numbers look so high in the elderly categories. The elderly are likely to be living off their equity, not income. They're not working at McDonald's, they're selling their houses and retiring to Palm Beach.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-24-2004, 06:15 PM

Quote:

they're selling their houses and retiring to Palm Beach.

Then why is PA the second largest recipient of Social Security checks?

UT, I don't think you can use yourself as an example for anything pertaining to average or normal. After all, you're a king.

smoothmoniker · 03-24-2004, 08:05 PM

our "poverty line" is, i expect, quite different than poverty anywhere else in the world.

yet another curse of living in a succesful social and economic environement - you get measured by different standards.

-sm

03-24-2004, 09:19 PM

Oh, you "expect," huh? First of all, if you expect to convince me of the validity of your point of view, I want hard facts from a reputable source, otherwise I'll write your opinion off to middle class complacency and intellectual laziness.

Just because when you look out your window, you don't see a street scene from northeastern Brazil (yet), hardly means that all is well in this country. I reject the argument that the US has a higher standard of living, therefore we need feel no concern for the poor of this nation.

Obviously, you have never attempted life below the official poverty line in the United States. Let me tell you a little how it works. If you are lucky, you'll get some sort of subsidized shelter, but you may have to wait two years or more before your name comes up on the list.* Meanwhile, your choice will be either the local shelter or the streets. Homeless shelters are notorius for incidents of rape, knivings, and other violence.* Many homeless people who live below the poverty line choose life on the streets or camped out on public lands.*

Once indoors, your problems are far from over. The amount of food stamps you will be allocated (if you are lucky enough to get food stanps) will be about $130 a month for a single person. That's a little over $30.00 a week. Its not enough. Always you will be a little hungry.

Every expense will be a nightmare. You won't own a car because you won't be able to afford insurance and repairs. If you are lucky you will live in a town large enough to have some sort of public transportation. If you are luckier yet, you will be able to afford a bus pass. Otherwise, you'll walk everywhere - to the public health clinic which won't be able to treat you for any condition requiring more than an aspirin, to the soup kitchen if your community has one, to the public library (one of the few real services our country provides its people).*

You won't be able to afford a phone or a TV. If you're lucky, someone might give you an old cheap portable radio they were going to throw out anyway. You won't be able to afford cleaning supplies or even the cost of a stamp to send a letter to your congressman.*

I could go on, but you still wouldn't get it, because you can't. You've never attempted it and you don't believe people have to live that way in the United States, and above all you lack both imagination and compassion. In their place you offer glib replies of "I expect" and "I don't believe."

* I can document each of these statements. Feel free to e-mail me if you really want to know.

Undertoad · 03-24-2004, 09:38 PM

Welp sm, looks like your plan to live off the state is not going to pan out. You won't be able to get your lattes. Best keep with the current plan of having gainful income and your own support system.

smoothmoniker · 03-25-2004, 12:12 AM

"The poor you will always have with you ..."

Yeah, it sucks to be poor. Unfortunately, poverty is not a social issue that can be swept away or dealt with en masse. It is solved one person at a time, by that one person securing and maintaining gainful employment. There is no political system better than democracy, no economic system better than capitalism for creating opportunities to sell one’s time and services.

Or is that too intellectually lazy for you?

-sm

wolf · 03-25-2004, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Then why is PA the second largest recipient of Social Security checks?

My anecdotal personal experience seems to indicate that this is because of large numbers of worthless drunk and drug using scumbags who have filed successful disability claims.

Troubleshooter · 03-25-2004, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf

My anecdotal personal experience seems to indicate that this is because of large numbers of worthless drunk and drug using scumbags who have filed successful disability claims.

Well that isn't a very warm fuzzy attitude.

Mind you, my experience is similar...

Undertoad · 03-25-2004, 09:03 AM

wolfie don't ever forget that you're looking at the world through some really strange filters.

The reason PA is #2 is merely that its tiny little central towns retain all of their elderly and few of their youth. They even run ads trying to tell fresh college grads to stay in PA and not run off to the West Coast.

Half my friends over the last 20 years did run off to California, and only one came back, PA is destined to be part of the northern grey belt. How many young people are in Johnstown, Lebanon, Scranton, Altoona, Oil City?

03-24-2004, 11:17 AM	#1
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	The ethics of citizenship They say evil happens when good people turn their backs and do nothing. I see the US as a country where the citizens are caught between complacency on the one hand and dispair on the other. Abuses of the people by the system are widespread and flagrant. Yet when one speaks out, one is generally regarded as some extremist whacko or told that "you can't fight city hall." Perhaps its true that we have lost so many freedoms that an individual no longer CAN fight city hall. What is the ethical response in the face of such indifference on the part of the government and its people? Is it still possible to effect a change for the good in this country? Should one even try? Last edited by marichiko; 03-24-2004 at 11:31 AM.

03-24-2004, 04:25 PM	#6
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	To Smoothmoniker I give you the following statistics from US government web sites without further comment: 43.6 million Americans were without health coverage in 2002 (The most recent year for which I could find statistics), an increase of 2.4 million from the year before. According to the measurement technique used, anywhere between 12.1% to 20.4% of all Americans now live below the poverty line. 50% of those aged 65 and up live below the poverty line, as well as 17% of this nation’s children under age 6. http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/p...r&dtable5.html The Justice Department’s Bureau of Statistics announced that while the US accounts for just 5% of the global population, 25% of the world’s prisoners are held in American prisons. On any given day, nearly one in eight black males aged 20 to 34 are in jail or prison. . About a quarter million mentally impaired inmates are also incarcerated in the nation's prisons. Last year, the U.S. trade deficit was 4.5 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). In 2002, the trade deficit was 4.0 percent of GDP, and in 2001, it was 3.5 percent. Meanwhile, to give the example of just one Asian country, Korea’s trade with the world reached $373 billion during 2003, an 18.6 percent increase over 2002. During this period, Korea’s exports totaled $194 billion, an increase of 19.6 percent, and imports were $179 billion, an increase of 17.5 percent. As a result, Korea had a trade surplus of $15.5 billion, up from $10.3 billion in 2002. In 2003 U.S. trade imports from Korea totaled $37.0 billion, an increase of 3.9 percent from the year before. http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/o...ve/current.pdf There, there now. You just go back to sleep and don’t worry your pretty little head. The wolf will be at the door in the morning.

03-24-2004, 11:24 AM	#2
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	* kicks the soap box over to Radar* you do it __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-24-2004, 12:34 PM	#3
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	i have sneaking suspicion that most people think they're rational, slightly smarter than the average bear, and well informed. They believe that other rational people, if they have the same information, will believe the same things they believe. Yet when they give out a cry for social revolution or government reformation, they are faced with an overwhelming lack of response. They blame this on social apathy, on a hostile culture, on the right-wing radio networks, on the left-wing news networks, etc. What they never stop to consider is that maybe the reason there's no response is because a vast majority of people disagree with them. I don't think the US is a country caught between complacency and despair. I think a vast segment of the population thinks that things are going well, that 95 out of a 100 of their friends are employed, that they are enjoying the same freedoms they have had their whole lifetime, that their home is increasing in value, and that the places where the system breaks down are by-and-large inconveniences (DMV) not glaring monuments of social injustice (Dred Scott). They believe that this country has a pretty good track record of correcting it's flaws and returning to center. -sm

03-24-2004, 12:48 PM	#4
Telefunken Going for the DX Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Taxachusetts Posts: 82	Cherish freedom. Never trade freedom for security.

03-24-2004, 04:43 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Quick note on the poverty numbers... I'm pretty sure I fall into the 20% category by not paying myself any actual income. And I live in a plush house in the burbs with equity and everything, and have never been in danger of losing it. This year my accountant says I should pay myself, so I will enter into a new government category, no longer "chronically unemployed" because I will send them tax money from a paycheck. But I've not been actually unemployed; I've been self-employed. Maybe underemployed, but during most of it I wasn't looking for work. And when I pay myself I'll still have the same amount of cash, because before I paid myself I took money out of the corporation as equity payments. That's why the poverty numbers look so high in the elderly categories. The elderly are likely to be living off their equity, not income. They're not working at McDonald's, they're selling their houses and retiring to Palm Beach.

03-24-2004, 08:05 PM	#9
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	our "poverty line" is, i expect, quite different than poverty anywhere else in the world. yet another curse of living in a succesful social and economic environement - you get measured by different standards. -sm

03-24-2004, 09:19 PM	#10
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Oh, you "expect," huh? First of all, if you expect to convince me of the validity of your point of view, I want hard facts from a reputable source, otherwise I'll write your opinion off to middle class complacency and intellectual laziness. Just because when you look out your window, you don't see a street scene from northeastern Brazil (yet), hardly means that all is well in this country. I reject the argument that the US has a higher standard of living, therefore we need feel no concern for the poor of this nation. Obviously, you have never attempted life below the official poverty line in the United States. Let me tell you a little how it works. If you are lucky, you'll get some sort of subsidized shelter, but you may have to wait two years or more before your name comes up on the list.* Meanwhile, your choice will be either the local shelter or the streets. Homeless shelters are notorius for incidents of rape, knivings, and other violence.* Many homeless people who live below the poverty line choose life on the streets or camped out on public lands.* Once indoors, your problems are far from over. The amount of food stamps you will be allocated (if you are lucky enough to get food stanps) will be about $130 a month for a single person. That's a little over $30.00 a week. Its not enough. Always you will be a little hungry. Every expense will be a nightmare. You won't own a car because you won't be able to afford insurance and repairs. If you are lucky you will live in a town large enough to have some sort of public transportation. If you are luckier yet, you will be able to afford a bus pass. Otherwise, you'll walk everywhere - to the public health clinic which won't be able to treat you for any condition requiring more than an aspirin, to the soup kitchen if your community has one, to the public library (one of the few real services our country provides its people).* You won't be able to afford a phone or a TV. If you're lucky, someone might give you an old cheap portable radio they were going to throw out anyway. You won't be able to afford cleaning supplies or even the cost of a stamp to send a letter to your congressman.* I could go on, but you still wouldn't get it, because you can't. You've never attempted it and you don't believe people have to live that way in the United States, and above all you lack both imagination and compassion. In their place you offer glib replies of "I expect" and "I don't believe." * I can document each of these statements. Feel free to e-mail me if you really want to know.

03-24-2004, 09:38 PM	#11
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Welp sm, looks like your plan to live off the state is not going to pan out. You won't be able to get your lattes. Best keep with the current plan of having gainful income and your own support system.

03-25-2004, 12:12 AM	#12
smoothmoniker to live and die in LA Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,090	"The poor you will always have with you ..." Yeah, it sucks to be poor. Unfortunately, poverty is not a social issue that can be swept away or dealt with en masse. It is solved one person at a time, by that one person securing and maintaining gainful employment. There is no political system better than democracy, no economic system better than capitalism for creating opportunities to sell one’s time and services. Or is that too intellectually lazy for you? -sm

03-25-2004, 09:03 AM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	wolfie don't ever forget that you're looking at the world through some really strange filters. The reason PA is #2 is merely that its tiny little central towns retain all of their elderly and few of their youth. They even run ads trying to tell fresh college grads to stay in PA and not run off to the West Coast. Half my friends over the last 20 years did run off to California, and only one came back, PA is destined to be part of the northern grey belt. How many young people are in Johnstown, Lebanon, Scranton, Altoona, Oil City?

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