1/26/2005: Hindu swastika

Undertoad · 01-26-2005, 10:45 AM

According to Hindu mythology, Swastika is the sign of prosperity. It wasn't their fault that it came to represent Nazism and thus a kind of evil. And so Hindus have launched a campaign to reclaim the swastika from its Nazi past and reinstate the 5,000-year-old emblem as a symbol of good luck.

Marketing is important, even to religions and schools of thought. But in this case they have a pretty difficult way to go. I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is.

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

glatt · 01-26-2005, 10:51 AM

I remember seeing swastikas in the Southwest in rock paintings by the Navahos? or another native american tribe. I thought some damn punk kids had vandalized the place, but found out later I was wrong.

Beestie · 01-26-2005, 11:18 AM

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

Happy Monkey · 01-26-2005, 11:45 AM

Apparently they hired some British royalty to help their marketing effort...

xoxoxoBruce · 01-26-2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

(Pronunciation Key)swas·ti·ka Listen: [ swst-k ]
n.
An ancient cosmic or religious symbol formed by a Greek cross with the ends of the arms bent at right angles in either a clockwise or a counterclockwise direction.
Such a symbol with a clockwise bend to the arms, used as the emblem of the Nazi party and of the German state under Adolf Hitler, officially adopted in 1935.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.]

mmmmbacon · 01-26-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

[Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.]

But did the Nazis first call that symbol a swastika, or were the Hindus already calling it that?

mmmmbacon · 01-26-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

I don't think it's that strange, since just about everything in our culture is one symbol or another. Even the physical objects we surround ourselves do double duty as symbols (cars, clothes). And symbols have all the power we assign to them. The collective power of social investment in a symbol is what gives it its meaning.

This particular symbol is about as powerful as a symbol gets, not just because of what it stands for, but also for the sheer number of people on this planet that know the symbol. It truly transcends the boundary of any one culture. Which is why this effort by the Hindus is not just insensitive to the rest of the world, but doomed to failure. It's not their symbol anymore.

mrputter · 01-26-2005, 01:01 PM

And then, of course, some may be familiar with the picture of the Edmonton Swastikas, a Canadian girls' hockey team from 1916...

<IMG SRC="http://www.trichotomy.ca/images/edmontonswastikas.jpg" />

Troubleshooter · 01-26-2005, 01:09 PM

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

glatt · 01-26-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

It truly transcends the boundary of any one culture. Which is why this effort by the Hindus is not just insensitive to the rest of the world, but doomed to failure. It's not their symbol anymore.

But the whole point is that they are trying to change the world's idea of what the symbol is. It may be hard, but it isn't impossible.

Reminds me of U2 saying on Rattle and Hum that they were stealing "Helter Skelter" back from Manson, who stole it from the Beatles.

When I was a kid in the 70's we would "xerox" things at the library if we needed them for a book report. Now I "photocopy" things at work. I never made a consious effort to switch the words I use to describe that action. It was a successful campaign by Xerox, adopted by much of society, that got me to think differently.

If Xerox can get me to change my language, maybe these guys can get me to think about that symbol differently.

magilla · 01-26-2005, 01:13 PM

There was a lot of resentment against the Finns during and after World War II when pictures were seen of swastikas painted on aircraft:

http://www.swastika-info.com/en/arti...061679609.html

(Any plane buffs out there? Is that a Brewster Buffalo? I know the US sent a few over to aid the Finns vs the Russians).

Supposedly, the Nazis didhelp the Finns when they were invaded by Russia, but the Finns were using swastikas long before the Nazis came to power.

mmmmbacon · 01-26-2005, 01:18 PM

(edited to add this quote)

Quote:

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

Troubleshooter · 01-26-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being.

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

How do you think Jews feel about that picture?

Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Please don't use the royals as an example for anything, it can only hurt your credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened.

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

It's not diluting something to return it to the 5000 +/- meaning it has carried. Quite the opposite I believe.

And as to mixed messages, it's not sending a mixed message. A hindu walking around with a swastika around his neck as a talisman is only doing it for himself.

mmmmbacon · 01-26-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

But the whole point is that they are trying to change the world's idea of what the symbol is. It may be hard, but it isn't impossible.

I don't think this issue is about whether it can be done (which I doubt), so much as it is about whether it should be done. Your analogy to the symbol of 'xerox' falls a tad short, since few (if any) people have an emotional attachment to the word you use for copying papers.

I have sympathy for those Hindus who feel like they've lost an important cultural symbol, and I understand why they want it back. But it's not theirs anymore. To try and change the meaning of that symbol does a disservice to all those that died in the shadow of the swastika. I'm not Jewish, but I can't imagine too many Jews who would be willing to embrace the swastika as a symbol of peace. The only positive I see in this is that the world is reminded that the symbol had a history before Nazism, but I don't think it's got a future beyond that, nor should it, imo.

Troubleshooter · 01-26-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

I'm not Jewish

Have you at least asked a jew?

01-26-2005, 10:45 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	1/26/2005: Hindu swastika According to Hindu mythology, Swastika is the sign of prosperity. It wasn't their fault that it came to represent Nazism and thus a kind of evil. And so Hindus have launched a campaign to reclaim the swastika from its Nazi past and reinstate the 5,000-year-old emblem as a symbol of good luck. Marketing is important, even to religions and schools of thought. But in this case they have a pretty difficult way to go. I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is. All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

01-26-2005, 11:18 AM	#3
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it?? __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

01-26-2005, 11:45 AM	#4
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Apparently they hired some British royalty to help their marketing effort... __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

01-26-2005, 01:09 PM	#9
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution? __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

01-26-2005, 10:51 AM	#2
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I remember seeing swastikas in the Southwest in rock paintings by the Navahos? or another native american tribe. I thought some damn punk kids had vandalized the place, but found out later I was wrong.

01-26-2005, 01:01 PM	#8
mrputter Superior Inhabitant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 71	And then, of course, some may be familiar with the picture of the Edmonton Swastikas, a Canadian girls' hockey team from 1916... <IMG SRC="http://www.trichotomy.ca/images/edmontonswastikas.jpg" />

01-26-2005, 01:13 PM	#11
magilla Belt Conveyor Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 67	There was a lot of resentment against the Finns during and after World War II when pictures were seen of swastikas painted on aircraft: http://www.swastika-info.com/en/arti...061679609.html (Any plane buffs out there? Is that a Brewster Buffalo? I know the US sent a few over to aid the Finns vs the Russians). Supposedly, the Nazis didhelp the Finns when they were invaded by Russia, but the Finns were using swastikas long before the Nazis came to power.

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