Russ makes a fuss

[Griff]

WASHINGTON Mar 13, 2006 (AP)— A liberal Democrat and potential White House contender is proposing censuring President Bush for authorizing domestic eavesdropping, saying the White House misled Americans about its legality.

"The president has broken the law and, in some way, he must be held accountable," Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., told The Associated Press in an interview.

A censure resolution, which simply would scold the president, has been used just once in U.S. history against Andrew Jackson in 1834.

I keep posting good things about Russ. We are living in bizarro world.

[Happy Monkey]

Feingold kicks ass. It is amazing that we've gone from "spend millions to investigate accusations of decade-old sexual harrassment" to "what would Iran think of us if we scolded the President for willfully violating the Fourth Ammendment of the US Constitution".

[warch]

Right on. I'm sick of this mamby pamby shit. Call Bush on it.
Saw a Feingold for president bumper sticker in the grocery store lot a few weeks back. He's a contender for my vote.

[Happy Monkey]

Absolutely. The only senator to vote against the Patriot Act in the first place deserves major support.

[Griff]

He's half a commie and he's still got this Libertarians deepest consideration. These are desparate times.

[richlevy]

The old link is broken here is an updated story.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Griff

He's half a commie and he's still got this Libertarians deepest consideration. These are desparate times.

I never understood why so many libertarians preferred Republicans to Democrats. The Republicans somewhat agree with libertarians on money. The Democrats somewhat agree with libertarians on civil liberties. Is the cash really more important?

[jaguar]

You answered your own question HM

[Griff]

I never thought Democrats were that committed to personal liberty with their opposition to freedom of association, continuous social experimentation, and lack of comittmentto property rights which are fundamental to personal freedom. How free can you be without any assurance that you'll keep what you create? This gets to the two competing visions of freedom. The libertarians are freedom of people and the Democrats are the freedom from people. The Dems ran a long way from their roots as the limited government party when they had to distance themselves from racism.

I think libertarians got suckered by the idea that the GOP was committed to a smaller less intrusive government. We ignored the dangerous combination of the "Christian" right, the fact that they've been the internal improvements (big government projects favoring their supporters over others) party since the collapse of the Whigs, and the nonsense about inheirent powers which Lincoln started.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think libertarians got suckered by the idea that the GOP was committed to a smaller less intrusive government.

Where'd you guys get that crazy idea, anyways? The GOP? Smaller government? Since when?

I'm surprised to find there are still some people that are still under the delusion that the party that parades around as "conservative" is actually interested in conserving anything. I was last told by a GOP supporter that the term applies, and always has, to only "family values". Not spending, not government, not people's rights. Family values.

Well, that cleared up my confusion right there.

Originally Posted by Griff

I never thought Democrats were that committed to personal liberty with their opposition to freedom of association, continuous social experimentation, and lack of comittmentto property rights which are fundamental to personal freedom.

...and yet, so many Libertarians leans towards a party that openly shreds the constitution, supports an illegal war and involvement outside the borders, allows the country to bleed away tax dollars, etc, etc.

I second Happy Monkey's confusion in this.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

...I'm surprised to find there are still some people that are still under the delusion that the party that parades around as "conservative" is actually interested in conserving anything...

Sure they are. They are interested in conserving their own power/wealth!

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Griff

lack of comittment to property rights which are fundamental to personal freedom. How free can you be without any assurance that you'll keep what you create?

None of the parties, not even the Libertarians, will let you "keep what you create". Government has to be funded, and that funding has to come from what the people in the country create (Unless we go back to the plundering of other countries as a revenue stream). The difference is only in how taxes are distributed, and what the total is, not whether you get to keep what you create.

This gets to the two competing visions of freedom. The libertarians are freedom of people and the Democrats are the freedom from people.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

The Dems ran a long way from their roots as the limited government party when they had to distance themselves from racism.

As the Democrats distanced themselves, the Republicans sidled up close. I don't see that as a net loss for the Democrats.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

...and yet, so many Libertarians leans towards a party that openly shreds the constitution, supports an illegal war and involvement outside the borders, allows the country to bleed away tax dollars, etc, etc.

Well, Kits, I am unpersuaded that the Republican Party is actually shredding any part of the Constitution, openly or covertly. The arguments presented for this idea satisfy the anti-Republicans, but no objective observer. The war is not only quite legal (except to anti-Republicans of a fringey nature), it is by definition right: it is being fought by democracy against dictatorship. It is inherently impossible for this to be wrongful. It might be destructive, it might be expensive and push up the national debt, it might be widely lethal.

So was World War Two. I fear, Kits, that your misapplied partisanship will forever make the concept of just war, known and understood by Christians anyway since St. Augustine of Hippo, something unknown to you. Fortunately, my vision is not so blurred.

Nor am I an isolationist, either -- it's unsustainable, and there's no going back to it in this day and age. American isolationism enjoyed a privileged existence for a century and a half or so, for most of that time because of the British Royal Navy's putting up a barrier other nations that might have been inclined to meddle in the Western Hemisphere found insuperable. Isolationism also worked better when the fastest way of moving anything, goods, people, or information, was the sailing ship at about five knots. The steamship and the transoceanic telegraph cable began to erode its viability, and the Roosevelt Administration was far-sighted enough to abandon isolationism around the turn of the last century. I am persuaded they were wise to do so.

So anyway, the Republicans, for all their manifold sins and wickedness (and these will happen to the Libertarian Party too, once it's actually responsible to make and execute policy to any large degree), are occasionally a lot nearer libertarianism in not only their thinking but also their doing than the entire pack of icky socialists clogging the arteries of the Jackass Party ever will be until they kick the socialists out and themselves embrace libertarianism. (Memo to self: Continue, do not interrupt, respiration.)

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Well, Kits, I am unpersuaded that the Republican Party is actually shredding any part of the Constitution, openly or covertly. The arguments presented for this idea satisfy the anti-Republicans, but no objective observer. The war is not only quite legal (except to anti-Republicans of a fringey nature), it is by definition right: it is being fought by democracy against dictatorship. It is inherently impossible for this to be wrongful.

So what's your take on Bush's displeasure in the democratically elected Hamas government in Palestine? Is he inherently wrong for opposing the results of a democratic election?

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The war is not only quite legal (except to anti-Republicans of a fringey nature), it is by definition right: it is being fought by democracy against dictatorship. It is inherently impossible for this to be wrongful. It might be destructive, it might be expensive and push up the national debt, it might be widely lethal.

My bad - we're not actually at war, anyways, so I guess this point didn't matter. The president is simply involved in a very large scale police action that involves the US military and didn't need an actual declaration of war or anything like that. Nope -- we're perfectly legal here! Carry on!

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

So was World War Two.

1. Axis powers attack American soil by bombing a Hawaii Naval Base. US enters WWII to fight them.
2. A "spy" we're not even sure exists provides false information about Iraq WMDs that did not exist and were shown not to exist by UN inspectors again and again. US enters Iraq.

I don't understand your comparison, here.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Nor am I an isolationist, either -- it's unsustainable, and there's no going back to it in this day and age.

I'm not all about isolationism, either. I just know that the US getting its grubby little hands into every country in the world is a bad idea. From the small scale CIA "interventions" in Central America that have gone oh-so-well to the bigger issues we're dealing with these days, it is very clear to me as to why the US is getting involved and it has zero to do with the administration feeling the need to spread democracy. We would have swept into many, many other countries long ago if we felt we were the great savior of people in need of fair government and we would have taken care of North Korea had we truly felt threatened by WMD. Hey, not only do we know the dictatorship of North Korea has a developing nuclear program, they were even threatening us with it before the Iraq ordeal began.

Who did we elect to use our military might against?

No matter how much the Administration is rolls this one in sugar, we're not in Iraq to "spread democracy" and "save the people". I fail to see how a true Libertarian can support these actions.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

...the entire pack of icky socialists clogging the arteries of the Jackass Party ever will be until they kick the socialists out and themselves embrace libertarianism.

I'd like to see the Jackass party at least grow a pair and stand up to what the administration has done (wiretapping, PATRIOT act, etc), but it seems they can't even stand on their own feet or actually express any solid goals at this point.