Kids These Days

Griff · 05-17-2003, 06:37 PM

I read Elspodes saga after having had a lovely little confrontation with a particularly diseased mind at school last week. Few folks value contempt for authority as much as I do. There is an expectation by many that we respect authority whether or not its legitamit, reasonable, or arbitrary. Growing up where and when I did I received an education in arbitrary authority as the PA gov kept raising the drinking age pushing us over the border to NY State for our boozing. It was comedic and occasionally tragic.

So I find myself teaching in a coercive system which gets more arbitrary with each passing legislative cycle. Normally you can reason with kids, explaining what they can get out of the system, appealing to their desire for success, convincing them to play "The Man's" game to their own benefit. This gets less and less convincing as courses are taught with the state exams in mind rather than the development of the individual. Its unfortunate that we force kids to follow specific routes through the education system which to paraphrase John Gatto, "Forces the kid who wants to be an auto mechanic to read poetry, while forcing the poet to put down his book when the bell rings." The public school system was originally built in part to assert and build respect for authority. The system, if it ain't broke, is badly bent. Often the outcome is just the opposite of what was intended.

I can almost respect the kid who refuses to cooperate with a system he feels is unjust, unfortunately his response isn't the result of some great intellectual awakening but is rather symtomatic of a human being backsliding to the animal. I suppose the theme of my rambling here is simply that when we assert authority we should always have a clear idea as to whether or not we are being arbitrary because when we are, we are contributing to Patrick's nightmare.

wolf · 05-17-2003, 07:39 PM

Kind of on topic ... last week over a couple of days on various talk radio programs discussions focused on some study which came up with the result that in today's America, the onset of "adulthood" is at around age 26.

I think part of the problems that we are discusing here results from this artificial extension of childhood, as well as the likelihood that parents are more likely to attempt to shield thier offspring from the consequences of their behavior — I've seen several children of the rich and powerful ending up in our hospital because of dealmaking with the local PD to avoid some VERY serious charges (aggravated assault and attempted murder to name two).

The educational system prepares kids (just barely) to go to college, rarely to be able to take on adult responsibilities at the age of 18, which is when the law allows them to do so.

SteveDallas · 05-17-2003, 07:44 PM

Read Why Nerds are Unpopular by Paul Graham. I'm sure you'll enjoy the comparisons between the functions of schools and prisons.

Oh and The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson touches on the value of subversive education in some places, when it isn't dealing with nano-tech enabled post-libertarian culture.

Edit--wolf's post came in while I was writing mine--Graham makes that point too in a way, that in past ages people in their late teens would be considered young adults doing something useful--if entry level--as an apprentice or some such, rather than kids. And oh yes the college I used to work at I saw the "shielding" in action. I fixed more than one computer because a parent complained to the Dean that the nasty computer center wouldn't fix Suzy's computer. (Generally the problem was that a) Suzy bought an el cheapo network card instead of what we recommended, and we made it clear that we'd try with anything but we wouldn't spend a significant amount of time on stuff not on our "supported" list or b) Suzy wanted her Macintosh repaired free under warranty (we were an Apple authorized shop) but she didn't buy it from us, and she couldn't be troubled to produce a bill of sale from wherever she did buy it from.)

jaguar · 05-18-2003, 01:16 AM

Good choice of text steve, particulary Diamond Age - Stepherson's theme there also exists in Snow Crash - Uncle Enzo using Y.T instead of the young mafia who he sees the same way Lord what'shisname sees the education system in New Atlantis.

Oh ya - Hi all, i'm back. Working kinda insane hours at the moment + moving house etcetc so don't expect to see to much of me (listen to chorus of sighs of relief) yet.

Wolf is right on the money 98% of the 18y.os i know could not survive without parental support, too immature, living in an absolute bubble, no concept of cause and effect. Over the last few months i've learnt the hard way.

Torrere · 05-18-2003, 01:49 AM

I have come to view the (high school) education system as a primitive punishment/reward feedback system. If you do your work, you get good grades, if you don't then you get bad grades. However, I've decided that if you go outside the classroom and find something interesting exposition that is concurrent to the school subject (eg, I wish that I had gained my current obsession with having at least moderately powerful speech habits while I was in my Speech class) then your ability to learn will be bolstered by having that feedback.

Oh, and I say "screw the tests". I simply don't worry about the nationalized tests and I actually have a hard time seeing why anybody would. =]

How much different were the schools when you were young?

Griff · 05-18-2003, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torrere

How much different were the schools when you were young?

The potential for violence was much lower. The classroom work was less challenging. High School drug use was similar, although we rarely saw anything more powerful than pot or alcohol, with alcohol being the most accepted and therefor the most dangerous. I think today drug use is happening at a much younger age ex we have had pot busts in our public elementary school here. Much of the problem lies with the breeding population. The worst cases are often kids whose grandparents are practically my age! The middle class has abdicated its responsibility for the future and I can't say I blame them. I won't submit my kids to the system, why should they?

I'm tossing around the idea of getting my Masters in Special Ed, its one area that has improved markedly since my time, unfortunately the number of kids in need seems to be much greater as well.

Whit · 05-18-2003, 10:17 AM

     Heh, this thread makes me think of my ten year old boy. He's continuously had problems in school nearly rivaling my own from back then. Part of it is how he's being raised. (by me)
     For instance, he's allowed to question anything he's told to do after he does it. The reasoning is that I want him to know why he's being forced to do whatever it is. Often this leads to him not having to be told again, he understands why it needs to be done and does it. My personal rule is that "Because I told you too" is never good enough. I'm raising him to be an adult, not a really big child, so I believe encouraging free thought and understanding in him is important.
     The school system, needless to say, doesn't have the same priorities. His most notable problem recently included the teachers telling him what his responsibilities to the class were and him saying, "Teaching may be your responsibility, it's your job, but I never agreed to learn anything, so it's not my responsibility." Sigh, I love that kid. Of course I said the same thing to a teacher when I was slightly younger than him.
     Part of the problem is that a lot of teachers don't know why they are teaching things. I had a science class in Jr. High where we had to identify 50 different types of rocks. I asked the teacher what possible reason there could be for that, and she actually said, "Maybe when you grow up you'll want to build a house and want to know what kind of rock it's on." I arched an eyebrow at her and punched a number of holes in that idea. Now had she said, it gives you experience applying the scientific method in complex circumstances I'd have said, "Ooooh! Ok."
     So far, I've been able to keep the kid focused on doing his school work because I know where he's coming from. I just wish schools would support individuality rather than just pushing the three R's Repetition, redundancy, and repetition. Some teachers are cool though, they just have to fight the system as well as deal with dumbass students.

Undertoad · 05-18-2003, 10:25 AM

That's awesome Whit! Good work by you, I salute you!

xoxoxoBruce · 05-19-2003, 05:14 PM

Well sure, everyone wants their kids to be the person they wanted to be whether they made it or not.
But this makes me wonder is it better FOR THE KID to raise them:
1- As the decent, moral, intelligent, honest, white knights that we all of course are.
2- As go with flow, climb the corporate ladder to the corner office, time shares in Aspen/tropics/Palm Springs, fat/dumb/happy sucess stories.
It seems to me they are mutually exclusive and my position seems to be reinforced by Enron, Adelphia, etc.

Am I threadjacking?

SteveDallas · 05-19-2003, 05:45 PM

I don't think you're threadjacking.

It's an interesting question you ask. I really do think it is mutually exclusive in a way. I consider myself successful in a modest way--established in my career, etc. But I choose to be involved with my family and to have other interests outside of my job, and I lack a singleminded drive for domination that would lead me to aspire to be a politician or the head of a multinational corporate powerhouse. But if I were like that that's probably all I would do with my life.

If you ever looked at Bill Clinton and wondered, where is the president who can have Clinton's idealism and breadth of knowledge without his smarminess (and i don't just mean the Lewinsky business--the man is a consummate politician and I don't mean that as a favorable description). Or looked at the 2000 presidential election where a man who practically bragged about the fact that he didn't study in college and made his way through family connections won the electoral vote (and lost the popular vote) against a man who had an encyclopedic grasp of policy issues but was (or was portrayed as, doesn't matter which is true) a cold-hearted antisocial nerd, and wondered, where is the president who has a brain and also more social and political skills than a tree stump? My answer is, there are plenty of such men and women. But they're doing anything but being politicians because they've become convinced that they can't aspire to any office higher than treasurer of the Rotary Club because they'd have to compromise their principles to do so. This results in a negative feedback loop, and here we are.

Having said all that, I don't know what the best advice to give kids is. I'm telling mine to learn as much as they can, weigh their choices, and make their decisions on the basis of their own principles. I want them to have my own principles, but I can't give them to them and I can't force them to have them. They're on their own.

05-17-2003, 06:37 PM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Kids These Days I read Elspodes saga after having had a lovely little confrontation with a particularly diseased mind at school last week. Few folks value contempt for authority as much as I do. There is an expectation by many that we respect authority whether or not its legitamit, reasonable, or arbitrary. Growing up where and when I did I received an education in arbitrary authority as the PA gov kept raising the drinking age pushing us over the border to NY State for our boozing. It was comedic and occasionally tragic. So I find myself teaching in a coercive system which gets more arbitrary with each passing legislative cycle. Normally you can reason with kids, explaining what they can get out of the system, appealing to their desire for success, convincing them to play "The Man's" game to their own benefit. This gets less and less convincing as courses are taught with the state exams in mind rather than the development of the individual. Its unfortunate that we force kids to follow specific routes through the education system which to paraphrase John Gatto, "Forces the kid who wants to be an auto mechanic to read poetry, while forcing the poet to put down his book when the bell rings." The public school system was originally built in part to assert and build respect for authority. The system, if it ain't broke, is badly bent. Often the outcome is just the opposite of what was intended. I can almost respect the kid who refuses to cooperate with a system he feels is unjust, unfortunately his response isn't the result of some great intellectual awakening but is rather symtomatic of a human being backsliding to the animal. I suppose the theme of my rambling here is simply that when we assert authority we should always have a clear idea as to whether or not we are being arbitrary because when we are, we are contributing to Patrick's nightmare. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-17-2003, 07:39 PM	#2
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Kind of on topic ... last week over a couple of days on various talk radio programs discussions focused on some study which came up with the result that in today's America, the onset of "adulthood" is at around age 26. I think part of the problems that we are discusing here results from this artificial extension of childhood, as well as the likelihood that parents are more likely to attempt to shield thier offspring from the consequences of their behavior — I've seen several children of the rich and powerful ending up in our hospital because of dealmaking with the local PD to avoid some VERY serious charges (aggravated assault and attempted murder to name two). The educational system prepares kids (just barely) to go to college, rarely to be able to take on adult responsibilities at the age of 18, which is when the law allows them to do so. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

05-17-2003, 07:44 PM	#3
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	Read Why Nerds are Unpopular by Paul Graham. I'm sure you'll enjoy the comparisons between the functions of schools and prisons. Oh and The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson touches on the value of subversive education in some places, when it isn't dealing with nano-tech enabled post-libertarian culture. Edit--wolf's post came in while I was writing mine--Graham makes that point too in a way, that in past ages people in their late teens would be considered young adults doing something useful--if entry level--as an apprentice or some such, rather than kids. And oh yes the college I used to work at I saw the "shielding" in action. I fixed more than one computer because a parent complained to the Dean that the nasty computer center wouldn't fix Suzy's computer. (Generally the problem was that a) Suzy bought an el cheapo network card instead of what we recommended, and we made it clear that we'd try with anything but we wouldn't spend a significant amount of time on stuff not on our "supported" list or b) Suzy wanted her Macintosh repaired free under warranty (we were an Apple authorized shop) but she didn't buy it from us, and she couldn't be troubled to produce a bill of sale from wherever she did buy it from.) Last edited by SteveDallas; 05-17-2003 at 07:52 PM.

05-18-2003, 01:16 AM	#4
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Good choice of text steve, particulary Diamond Age - Stepherson's theme there also exists in Snow Crash - Uncle Enzo using Y.T instead of the young mafia who he sees the same way Lord what'shisname sees the education system in New Atlantis. Oh ya - Hi all, i'm back. Working kinda insane hours at the moment + moving house etcetc so don't expect to see to much of me (listen to chorus of sighs of relief) yet. Wolf is right on the money 98% of the 18y.os i know could not survive without parental support, too immature, living in an absolute bubble, no concept of cause and effect. Over the last few months i've learnt the hard way. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

05-18-2003, 10:17 AM	#7
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Heh, this thread makes me think of my ten year old boy. He's continuously had problems in school nearly rivaling my own from back then. Part of it is how he's being raised. (by me)      For instance, he's allowed to question anything he's told to do after he does it. The reasoning is that I want him to know why he's being forced to do whatever it is. Often this leads to him not having to be told again, he understands why it needs to be done and does it. My personal rule is that "Because I told you too" is never good enough. I'm raising him to be an adult, not a really big child, so I believe encouraging free thought and understanding in him is important.      The school system, needless to say, doesn't have the same priorities. His most notable problem recently included the teachers telling him what his responsibilities to the class were and him saying, "Teaching may be your responsibility, it's your job, but I never agreed to learn anything, so it's not my responsibility." Sigh, I love that kid. Of course I said the same thing to a teacher when I was slightly younger than him.      Part of the problem is that a lot of teachers don't know why they are teaching things. I had a science class in Jr. High where we had to identify 50 different types of rocks. I asked the teacher what possible reason there could be for that, and she actually said, "Maybe when you grow up you'll want to build a house and want to know what kind of rock it's on." I arched an eyebrow at her and punched a number of holes in that idea. Now had she said, it gives you experience applying the scientific method in complex circumstances I'd have said, "Ooooh! Ok."      So far, I've been able to keep the kid focused on doing his school work because I know where he's coming from. I just wish schools would support individuality rather than just pushing the three R's Repetition, redundancy, and repetition. Some teachers are cool though, they just have to fight the system as well as deal with dumbass students. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

05-18-2003, 01:49 AM	#5
Torrere a real smartass Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,121	I have come to view the (high school) education system as a primitive punishment/reward feedback system. If you do your work, you get good grades, if you don't then you get bad grades. However, I've decided that if you go outside the classroom and find something interesting exposition that is concurrent to the school subject (eg, I wish that I had gained my current obsession with having at least moderately powerful speech habits while I was in my Speech class) then your ability to learn will be bolstered by having that feedback. Oh, and I say "screw the tests". I simply don't worry about the nationalized tests and I actually have a hard time seeing why anybody would. =] How much different were the schools when you were young?

05-18-2003, 10:25 AM	#8
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That's awesome Whit! Good work by you, I salute you!

05-19-2003, 05:14 PM	#9
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well sure, everyone wants their kids to be the person they wanted to be whether they made it or not. But this makes me wonder is it better FOR THE KID to raise them: 1- As the decent, moral, intelligent, honest, white knights that we all of course are. 2- As go with flow, climb the corporate ladder to the corner office, time shares in Aspen/tropics/Palm Springs, fat/dumb/happy sucess stories. It seems to me they are mutually exclusive and my position seems to be reinforced by Enron, Adelphia, etc. Am I threadjacking? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-19-2003, 05:45 PM	#10
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	I don't think you're threadjacking. It's an interesting question you ask. I really do think it is mutually exclusive in a way. I consider myself successful in a modest way--established in my career, etc. But I choose to be involved with my family and to have other interests outside of my job, and I lack a singleminded drive for domination that would lead me to aspire to be a politician or the head of a multinational corporate powerhouse. But if I were like that that's probably all I would do with my life. If you ever looked at Bill Clinton and wondered, where is the president who can have Clinton's idealism and breadth of knowledge without his smarminess (and i don't just mean the Lewinsky business--the man is a consummate politician and I don't mean that as a favorable description). Or looked at the 2000 presidential election where a man who practically bragged about the fact that he didn't study in college and made his way through family connections won the electoral vote (and lost the popular vote) against a man who had an encyclopedic grasp of policy issues but was (or was portrayed as, doesn't matter which is true) a cold-hearted antisocial nerd, and wondered, where is the president who has a brain and also more social and political skills than a tree stump? My answer is, there are plenty of such men and women. But they're doing anything but being politicians because they've become convinced that they can't aspire to any office higher than treasurer of the Rotary Club because they'd have to compromise their principles to do so. This results in a negative feedback loop, and here we are. Having said all that, I don't know what the best advice to give kids is. I'm telling mine to learn as much as they can, weigh their choices, and make their decisions on the basis of their own principles. I want them to have my own principles, but I can't give them to them and I can't force them to have them. They're on their own.

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