Now I Get It

Griff · 12-05-2003, 09:06 AM

It's perpetual war for perpetual profit, why didn't the neo-cons say that in the first place? We can all get on board with that... unless, I suppose, you pay taxes. Richard Perle knows how to operate!

Richard Perle, a prominent Pentagon adviser, lobbied on behalf of Boeing's bid for a controversial $18bn government contract a year after the aerospace company made a $20m investment in the venture capital fund he runs.

Undertoad · 12-05-2003, 09:49 AM

That's a circle jerk of power, not of money. Perle doesn't get any of that $20M, it's an investment in the companies that the VC funds.

Radar · 12-05-2003, 09:51 AM

I work at Boeing until the end of January and the shit is hitting the fan at the moment.

Happy Monkey · 12-05-2003, 10:01 AM

Don't worry - when they eventually lose power, they'll get the money. It's just illegal to get both at once.

Whit · 12-05-2003, 10:21 PM

      Damn it Radar, you can't just drop that with no follow up. Why is it hitting the fan? Not enough supplies to meet demand? Everyone working overtime and pissed about it? Everyone hearing this stuff and not working overtime and pissed about it? What?

elSicomoro · 12-05-2003, 11:44 PM

Boeing looks like it's seriously hurting right now...CFO fired, CEO resigns and they're about to be overtaken by Airbus in commercial jet deliveries for the first time. This news certainly doesn't help them any.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-06-2003, 11:04 AM

Boeing bought out McDonald Douglas for their production capability when they had a backlog of orders for comercial planes and MD's commercial business had tanked. Lots of other rumors as to other motivation like EADS (Airbus)wanting MD also. Along with the commercial production capability Boeing got a huge Defence contract business.

So Boeing's #1, Phil Condit, makes the deal with MD's Harry Stonecipher and hires him as Boeings #2 man. Harry convinces Phil that Boeing(who's #1) is doing it all wrong and should do it like MD(that tanked) and divest all manufacturing capability in favor of outsourceing and just do assembly.

Condit knocks up his secretary and because his wife is a Seattle socialite (oxymoron?) has to move Boeing to Chicago and says he
doesn't care if Boeing makes planes or not as long as they make money on their investment. Bill Boeing hits 2700rpm in his grave.

From the Wright Bros on down, the secret of aircraft is in the wings. Boeing has always bought parts from suppliers all over the world as a part of sales deals. They even took partial payment for one plane in berries that they had to sell freeze dried to a cereal producer. Anyway the next plane (7E7 Dreamliner) will have the wings produced in Japan. When they can build wings, why do they need Boeing? Wall Street is asking!

EADS (Airbus) is owned and heavily subsidized by several European Governments so they can sell cheap to get into the market.

On the Defence side the former MD people hired some of their competitors people who in turn brought proprietary information with them. Only 3 or 4 people at very high level involved but the Government found out and Boeing had a billion dollars in contracts taken away.
Meanwhile Mike Sears the CFO at the urging of an employee talks to Ms Runyan about working for Boeing. The employee is Ms Runyans daughter, and at the time Ms Runyan was negotiating for the Government with Boeing on this Airforce Tanker deal. Looks bad, you know, but the kicker was when it came to light they both tried to cover it up. They're gone.

Remember Stonesipher? He retired as #2 man awhile ago and has been working as a Boeing director, so when the board of directors canned Condit, Stonecipher slid from the board right into #1 spot.

It's all downhill from here.

tw · 12-06-2003, 05:42 PM

Boeing's problems are widespread. Not only is the MD disease appearing all through Boeing, but they are having problems in every segment of their business. All symptoms of technological ignorance at the executive levels.

Boeing was once renoun for their manufacturing abilities. They also went high tech into application design methods. But in the past 20 years, Boeing is doing what MBA dominated defense contractors do. When in trouble, they ran for government contracts. Those air tankers are only typical of what is happening throughout virtually every division of Boeing.

Bad enough that the Osprey was so poorly designed. But then that was from a division that has long been a poor division. Boeing is famous because they identified a new product so fundamental that Boeing would risk the corporation. They did that with WWII bombers - manufacturing at a breakneck pace even when they had no customers (we did not yet think we would be at war). The 707 was another classic example. 747 was another total risk to the company that gave Boeing the only source of the most profitable aircraft for decades.

So where is the next 'breakthrough' aircraft? It does not exist - which is typically what happened even in Apple when MBA took over that company and almost ran it into the ground.

Their spy satellite business is in total chaos. Reports say Boeing could not handle the technical complexity. How can that be? Last time a system was so complex as to require a company that could handle technical complexity? Apollo 1 that killed three astronauts. Boeing was brought in to manage a program in technology disarray. And yet now Boeing cannot handle the technology of spy satellite?

Their rocket business, mostly inherited from MD, is in trouble. So they had to resort to spying just to stay competitive. 777 program is no longer competitive with Airbus. How much innovation does Boeing now stifle? Why do Boeing airliners not have outlets for laptop power in every seat? First class on all Airbus have power available on every seat of every airline. Why can't Boeing even get this simple technology working?

Why move HQ from where the work gets done? Exactly what MBAs believe. A good manager can manage any business. A lie. But then when did an MBA acknowledge he was the enemy of the company? First Energy only being the latest example of anti-business management whose only objective is to enrich the management - employees be damned. Boeing has problems now in virutally every division because top management does not come from where the work gets done. Classic MBA disease. Classic to what happened in McDonald Douglas.

So who do they hire to replace Conduit? The old MD top executive whose MBA background drove MD into the earth. Therein lies the problem with Boeing. They so refuse to admit their reason for failure as to even hire those from MD who destroyed MD.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-07-2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Their spy satellite business is in total chaos. Reports say Boeing could not handle the technical complexity. How can that be? Last time a system was so complex as to require a company that could handle technical complexity? Apollo 1 that killed three astronauts. Boeing was brought in to manage a program in technology disarray. And yet now Boeing cannot handle the technology of spy satellite?

They weren't brought into the Apollo program because technical expertise. They were awarded a contract to coordinate between the various contractors to insure compatability. The reason the were awarded that contract was because of their reputation for *INTEGRITY*. Now thanks to Stonecipher and the MBA's that's gone too.

Radar · 12-08-2003, 12:38 AM

I'm working at BSS (Boeing Sattelite Systems EDD (Electron Dynamics Division)...formerly Hughes Space & Communications) and all I can say is I've been there 5 months and have seen probably 30+ retirement parties. It feels like rats leaving a sinking ship.

A few years ago Boeing bought McDonald Douglas. McDonald Douglas had hired a guy from Lockheed. That guy brought some of his designs from Lockheed with him and it was presented in a bid for a government Sattelite. Lockheed called foul and Boeing had 7 sattelites taken from them by the Gov't. (That's nearly 900 million dollars worth of work). Everyone at Boeing had to take ethics classes, but it looks like the CFO didn't take those classes and when he got fired, everyone looked at the CEO. He resigned in an effort to save the company's reputation.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-08-2003, 09:27 PM

Radar, they changed our schedule for one day. Instead of working 6am to 2:30pm we had to work 8:30am to 5 pm that day and at 10:30am they closed the plant. We had until 11:30 to have lunch and get in to Philly(no transportation supplied) to where the Philly Flyers play. Then we listened to ethics bullshit that only applies to 1/10 of 1% of the high ups, for 5 1/2 hrs without a break. There were two more sessions in-plant for people that missed the first one. Since then we've had 30 minute refreshers, once a month. What did you get?

Radar · 12-09-2003, 08:48 AM

I'm a contractor. I was with Hughes years ago, but came to Boeing after the whole ethics class thing. But from what I've seen people have to take online ethics classes and are given hypothetical situations (Two men and a woman on a space ship, you notice one of them is eating more than their fair share of food, what do you do...etc.)

Luckily I've been exempted either because I'm temporary or because my honesty and integrity are beyond question. I'd like to think it's the latter, but I'm convinced it's the former.

warch · 12-09-2003, 09:45 AM

Well then, those ethics seminars should fix everything, at least with the workers.. Nothing like a little role-playing and multiple answer to recalibrate your moral core.

tw · 12-09-2003, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radar
I'm a contractor. I was with Hughes years ago, but came to Boeing after the whole ethics class thing.

As I understand it, Phil Condit is (was) a well liked person at the employee level. Is that what you observe?

Radar · 12-09-2003, 05:40 PM

Never met the man. In fact before he was in the paper, I didn't know who he was.

12-05-2003, 09:51 AM	#3
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I work at Boeing until the end of January and the shit is hitting the fan at the moment. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-05-2003, 10:01 AM	#4
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Power AND Money Don't worry - when they eventually lose power, they'll get the money. It's just illegal to get both at once. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

12-05-2003, 10:21 PM	#5
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Damn it Radar, you can't just drop that with no follow up. Why is it hitting the fan? Not enough supplies to meet demand? Everyone working overtime and pissed about it? Everyone hearing this stuff and not working overtime and pissed about it? What? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

12-06-2003, 11:04 AM	#7
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Boeing bought out McDonald Douglas for their production capability when they had a backlog of orders for comercial planes and MD's commercial business had tanked. Lots of other rumors as to other motivation like EADS (Airbus)wanting MD also. Along with the commercial production capability Boeing got a huge Defence contract business. So Boeing's #1, Phil Condit, makes the deal with MD's Harry Stonecipher and hires him as Boeings #2 man. Harry convinces Phil that Boeing(who's #1) is doing it all wrong and should do it like MD(that tanked) and divest all manufacturing capability in favor of outsourceing and just do assembly. Condit knocks up his secretary and because his wife is a Seattle socialite (oxymoron?) has to move Boeing to Chicago and says he doesn't care if Boeing makes planes or not as long as they make money on their investment. Bill Boeing hits 2700rpm in his grave. From the Wright Bros on down, the secret of aircraft is in the wings. Boeing has always bought parts from suppliers all over the world as a part of sales deals. They even took partial payment for one plane in berries that they had to sell freeze dried to a cereal producer. Anyway the next plane (7E7 Dreamliner) will have the wings produced in Japan. When they can build wings, why do they need Boeing? Wall Street is asking! EADS (Airbus) is owned and heavily subsidized by several European Governments so they can sell cheap to get into the market. On the Defence side the former MD people hired some of their competitors people who in turn brought proprietary information with them. Only 3 or 4 people at very high level involved but the Government found out and Boeing had a billion dollars in contracts taken away. Meanwhile Mike Sears the CFO at the urging of an employee talks to Ms Runyan about working for Boeing. The employee is Ms Runyans daughter, and at the time Ms Runyan was negotiating for the Government with Boeing on this Airforce Tanker deal. Looks bad, you know, but the kicker was when it came to light they both tried to cover it up. They're gone. Remember Stonesipher? He retired as #2 man awhile ago and has been working as a Boeing director, so when the board of directors canned Condit, Stonecipher slid from the board right into #1 spot. It's all downhill from here. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-08-2003, 12:38 AM	#10
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I'm working at BSS (Boeing Sattelite Systems EDD (Electron Dynamics Division)...formerly Hughes Space & Communications) and all I can say is I've been there 5 months and have seen probably 30+ retirement parties. It feels like rats leaving a sinking ship. A few years ago Boeing bought McDonald Douglas. McDonald Douglas had hired a guy from Lockheed. That guy brought some of his designs from Lockheed with him and it was presented in a bid for a government Sattelite. Lockheed called foul and Boeing had 7 sattelites taken from them by the Gov't. (That's nearly 900 million dollars worth of work). Everyone at Boeing had to take ethics classes, but it looks like the CFO didn't take those classes and when he got fired, everyone looked at the CEO. He resigned in an effort to save the company's reputation. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-05-2003, 09:06 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Now I Get It It's perpetual war for perpetual profit, why didn't the neo-cons say that in the first place? We can all get on board with that... unless, I suppose, you pay taxes. Richard Perle knows how to operate! Richard Perle, a prominent Pentagon adviser, lobbied on behalf of Boeing's bid for a controversial $18bn government contract a year after the aerospace company made a $20m investment in the venture capital fund he runs. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

12-05-2003, 09:49 AM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That's a circle jerk of power, not of money. Perle doesn't get any of that $20M, it's an investment in the companies that the VC funds.

12-05-2003, 11:44 PM	#6
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Boeing looks like it's seriously hurting right now...CFO fired, CEO resigns and they're about to be overtaken by Airbus in commercial jet deliveries for the first time. This news certainly doesn't help them any.

12-06-2003, 05:42 PM	#8
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Boeing's problems are widespread. Not only is the MD disease appearing all through Boeing, but they are having problems in every segment of their business. All symptoms of technological ignorance at the executive levels. Boeing was once renoun for their manufacturing abilities. They also went high tech into application design methods. But in the past 20 years, Boeing is doing what MBA dominated defense contractors do. When in trouble, they ran for government contracts. Those air tankers are only typical of what is happening throughout virtually every division of Boeing. Bad enough that the Osprey was so poorly designed. But then that was from a division that has long been a poor division. Boeing is famous because they identified a new product so fundamental that Boeing would risk the corporation. They did that with WWII bombers - manufacturing at a breakneck pace even when they had no customers (we did not yet think we would be at war). The 707 was another classic example. 747 was another total risk to the company that gave Boeing the only source of the most profitable aircraft for decades. So where is the next 'breakthrough' aircraft? It does not exist - which is typically what happened even in Apple when MBA took over that company and almost ran it into the ground. Their spy satellite business is in total chaos. Reports say Boeing could not handle the technical complexity. How can that be? Last time a system was so complex as to require a company that could handle technical complexity? Apollo 1 that killed three astronauts. Boeing was brought in to manage a program in technology disarray. And yet now Boeing cannot handle the technology of spy satellite? Their rocket business, mostly inherited from MD, is in trouble. So they had to resort to spying just to stay competitive. 777 program is no longer competitive with Airbus. How much innovation does Boeing now stifle? Why do Boeing airliners not have outlets for laptop power in every seat? First class on all Airbus have power available on every seat of every airline. Why can't Boeing even get this simple technology working? Why move HQ from where the work gets done? Exactly what MBAs believe. A good manager can manage any business. A lie. But then when did an MBA acknowledge he was the enemy of the company? First Energy only being the latest example of anti-business management whose only objective is to enrich the management - employees be damned. Boeing has problems now in virutally every division because top management does not come from where the work gets done. Classic MBA disease. Classic to what happened in McDonald Douglas. So who do they hire to replace Conduit? The old MD top executive whose MBA background drove MD into the earth. Therein lies the problem with Boeing. They so refuse to admit their reason for failure as to even hire those from MD who destroyed MD.

12-08-2003, 09:27 PM	#11
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Radar, they changed our schedule for one day. Instead of working 6am to 2:30pm we had to work 8:30am to 5 pm that day and at 10:30am they closed the plant. We had until 11:30 to have lunch and get in to Philly(no transportation supplied) to where the Philly Flyers play. Then we listened to ethics bullshit that only applies to 1/10 of 1% of the high ups, for 5 1/2 hrs without a break. There were two more sessions in-plant for people that missed the first one. Since then we've had 30 minute refreshers, once a month. What did you get? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-09-2003, 08:48 AM	#12
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I'm a contractor. I was with Hughes years ago, but came to Boeing after the whole ethics class thing. But from what I've seen people have to take online ethics classes and are given hypothetical situations (Two men and a woman on a space ship, you notice one of them is eating more than their fair share of food, what do you do...etc.) Luckily I've been exempted either because I'm temporary or because my honesty and integrity are beyond question. I'd like to think it's the latter, but I'm convinced it's the former. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-09-2003, 09:45 AM	#13
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Well then, those ethics seminars should fix everything, at least with the workers.. Nothing like a little role-playing and multiple answer to recalibrate your moral core.

12-09-2003, 05:40 PM	#15
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Never met the man. In fact before he was in the paper, I didn't know who he was. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)