Save Katie Holmes!

[Trilby]

Ok, I just spent about an hour looking over some of the websites on Scientology and I'm just completely baffled that anyone would buy into this nuttiness. The official, church-sanctioned site is really amazon.com in disguise. You want to know the answer to a question about scientology? Buy the book! I've read enough to know that this stuff is even weirder than Donny and Marie, and that takes some effort. For one glaring example-the main premise of the "religion" is that long, long ago beings from another planet were dumped in the volcano's of the Earth and killed ( killed because the planets they were living on were just too darn over-crowded) via hydrogen bombs. Their spirits were trapped here and once mankind arrived on the scene the spirits attached themselves to man and caused him to be a slave to a delusional reality. CoS will free, or in their term "clear", you of this false reality. Of course, all this "clearing" takes money. Katie needs to run-not walk-to the nearest exit. This stuff is scary. Seriously scary. And apparently Clearwater, Fla. is practically owned by these nuts!~

[xoxoxoBruce]

You want to know the answer to a question about scientology? Buy the book!

You better buy a dictionary or two at the same time because the obfucation is plethoric.

[wolf]

The important thing to know about scientology is that the more money you give them, the clearer you become ...

OT8 (current highest rank, and what Tom Cruise is) goes for around $300K

[richlevy]

Well, the goal of any cult is to get enough money to go mainstream. The Unification Church bought the Washington Times and are trying to position themselves as standard social conservatives. It will be interesting to see how well they are welcomed into the big tent.

BTW, I will be selling 'grand master of the 12th element' certificates for a measly $1000 to anyone who, in my judgement, has attained a sufficient inner growth. I will require individuals with open minds and a credit score of at least 650.

[Trilby]

Tom Cruise claims scientology cured (?) him of his learning disabilities. I'd say not.
It's one of those things--I forget what you call them, you know, like a self-proving theory. Learning Disabled=High Probability of Becoming a scientologist. But that is sort of insulting to LD people. Doesn't anyone care that L. Ron Hubbard was a misanthropic cretin?

[Elspode]

Probably no more than the Church of All Worlds people care that Heinlein was a dirty old man.

[Troubleshooter]

You say that like one religion has a more valid origin than any other.

Isn't it quite possible that Scientology simple hasn't had the time to evolve into something as pervasive and popular as any other religion, like say the Mormons?

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

You say that like one religion has a more valid origin than any other.

Isn't it quite possible that Scientology simple hasn't had the time to evolve into something as pervasive and popular as any other religion, like say the Mormons?

The origin of scientology is a science-fiction writer who was quoted as saying that writing for a penny a word was ridiculous and if you really wanted to make money starting a religion was the way to go. He was a drug-abusing narcissist who terrorized his own children (at least according to his son who left the CoS). This is a cult and a dangerous one at that.

PS-Mormon is a cult, too.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

This is a cult and a dangerous one at that.

PS-Mormon is a cult, too.

You got that did you?

Just continue the analogy backwards indefinitely through time and you have the working model for all religions.

[Trilby]

Really? All religions? Are you sure about that? Wicca seems exempt from the cult status.

And why are you such a sarcastic butthead?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Really? All religions? Are you sure about that? Wicca seems exempt from the cult status.

And why are you such a sarcastic butthead?

All religions were at one point considered the out-group and thus a cult. Wicca, depending on your flavor, has come full circle sort of. What do you think the Romans thought when they showed up and had to deal with hordes of people painted blue with their hair on fire running towards them bearing weapons and little else?

And as to being a sarcastic butthead, I am not a butthead. I have little need or use for religion except at a topic of study. And no, I'm not at athiest, at least not as is popularly defined anyway.

[Trilby]

Spiritual, not religious? That brand? Whatever works (does that make me a pragmatist? I'm not). You can't just mean that a cult is simply the odd-man out at the latest party. A cult distorts doctrines of other faiths, especially pertaining to salvation (however that is defined) making salvation virtually unattainable. You get nowhere in a cult. Even Christians are more palatable than that! At least they tell you that jesus loves you just as you are!

But, seriously, I don't agree that all religions started as cults. Depends on the defintion of cult. And Wicca wasn't specific to the Celts and Picts only. Not everyone painted themselves blue and ran around with their hair on fire. Go back and trace the roots of Wicca and you find that road leads so far into pre-history that you can't know it's origins.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Spiritual, not religious? That brand?

I'm not spiritual in that I don't mystify the unknown or unexplained. Things occur in life that are not explainable without a leap of faith, so to speak. I refuse to accept an explanation that isn't an explanation but is a salve to heal the discomfort of ignorance. To me, that is what religion, and to most extents sprirituality, is. It is an attempt to tell people that it's ok that the lightning struck your house and burned it to the ground. It's just saying that the Thunder God(tm) was unhappy about something instead of saying "How the fuck should I know?"

And as to my brand of athiesm, I mean it in the literal sense. Non-theism. How can I have a religion if I don't recognize a spiritual existance. Now, as to my opinion about a spiritual component to life; I have yet to see a legitimate, verifiable, reproduceable, etc. instance of one.

But I'm also cognizant of my own ignorance, as well as that of others, so I am, with proper evidence, quite willing to concede the possibilities of the paranormal.

And for clarity's sake, supernatural is a null word in my opinion. Either something exists, or it does not. If it does, it is natural. If it does not, then it is Not. Paranormal is only a referrence to what has been shown to be extant and what has not. Once it is proven, it ceases to be paranormal.

Originally Posted by Brianna

Whatever works (does that make me a pragmatist? I'm not). You can't just mean that a cult is simply the odd-man out at the latest party. A cult distorts doctrines of other faiths, especially pertaining to salvation (however that is defined) making salvation virtually unattainable. You get nowhere in a cult. Even Christians are more palatable than that! At least they tell you that jesus loves you just as you are!

Christians are more palatable now. To the pantheistic Romans they were exactly what you describe a cult to be. See the Egyptian model as well.

Originally Posted by Brianna

But, seriously, I don't agree that all religions started as cults. Depends on the defintion of cult. And Wicca wasn't specific to the Celts and Picts only. Not everyone painted themselves blue and ran around with their hair on fire. Go back and trace the roots of Wicca and you find that road leads so far into pre-history that you can't know it's origins.

To me, defining cult is based on its etymology. Notice the prevailing usage, hiding. See the OED*.

It doesn't matter which time frame you examine, it's a basic theme to be hidden at first, to protect yourself and your fellow adherents until you grow large enough to impact your social-political environment. Then you either insinuate yourself so thoroughly that you are impossible to eradicate or you possess enough strength of arms to to resist or destroy the other guy.

*[< classical Latin occultus secret, hidden from the understanding, hidden, concealed, past participle of occulere to cover up, hide, conceal < ob- OB- + the stem of which a lengthened form is seen in c{emac}l{amac}re to hide (see CELE v.), cognate with Old Irish celim (Irish ceil), Welsh celu to hide, conceal (12th-13th cent.), Old High German helan to hide, conceal (see HELE v.1). Cf. Anglo-Norman and Middle French, French occulte secret (first half of the 12th cent. in Anglo-Norman; also in Anglo-Norman as oculte (first half of the 12th cent.)), Italian occulto (1308), Spanish oculto (1438), Catalan ocult (1481), Portuguese oculto (16th cent.). With use as noun cf. classical Latin occulta secrets, use as noun of neuter plural of occultus (see above), and French occulte secret thing (1821). Cf. slightly earlier OCCULT v.
With occult philosophy (see quot. 1651 at sense 1b) cf. post-classical Latin occulta philosophia, title of a work by H. C. Agrippa (1531), and French philosophie occulte (1603 or earlier). With occult sciences (see quots. 1711, 1903 at sense 1b) cf. French sciences occultes (1690).
With occult qualities (see sense 2c) cf. French qualités occultes (1677). With occult line (see sense 3b) cf. French ligne occulte (1690).]

A. adj. I. General uses.

1. a. Not disclosed or divulged, secret; kept secret; communicated only to the initiated. Now rare.

b. Of or relating to magic, alchemy, astrology, theosophy, or other practical arts held to involve agencies of a secret or mysterious nature; of the nature of such an art; dealing with or versed in such matters; magical.

2. a. Not apprehended, or not apprehensible, by the mind; beyond ordinary understanding or knowledge; abstruse, mysterious; inexplicable.

{dag}b. Of a thing or phenomenon: not affecting, or detectable by, the senses; imperceptible. Obs.

c. Science (now hist.). Of a property or matter: not manifest to direct observation; discoverable only by experiment; unexplained; latent. Also: {dag}dealing with such qualities, experimental (obs.).

3. a. Hidden from sight; concealed (by something interposed); not exposed to view.

{dag}b. Of a line, etc.: drawn as an aid in the construction of a figure, but intended to be erased or covered; (also) dotted. Obs.

c. Med. Of a disease: hidden, concealed, difficult to detect; unaccompanied by readily discernible signs or symptoms; spec. designating a primary neoplasm that is initially detected only indirectly, esp. by its metastases. Formerly (also): {dag}inexplicable, obscure (obs.).

II. Special uses.

4. occult bleeding Med. [after German Okkulte(magen)blutung (I. Boas 1901, in Deutsch. Med. Wochenschr. 16 May 315/2) < okkult occult + Magen stomach (see MAW n.1) + Blutung bleeding], haemorrhage, esp. in the gastrointestinal tract, that results in occult blood. occult blood Med., blood, esp. in faeces or stomach contents, that is present in an amount too small to be visible, and that is detectable only by chemical or other laboratory tests.

B. n.

{dag}1. A hidden or secret thing. Obs. rare.

2. With the. The realm of the unknown; the supernatural world or its influences, manifestations, etc.; (collectively) magic, alchemy, astrology, and other practical arts of a secret or mysterious nature (see OCCULT a. 1b). Cf. OCCULTISM n.

C. v.
1. trans. a. To hide, conceal; to cut off from view by interposing something. Also fig.

b. Astron. Of a celestial object: to conceal (an apparently smaller object) from view by passing or being in front. Cf. OCCULTATION n. 2b, ECLIPSE v. 2.

2. intr. Of a lighthouse light: to be cut off from view as part of its cycle of light and dark.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sheesh....talk about obfuscation.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Brianna

The origin of scientology is a science-fiction writer who was quoted as saying that writing for a penny a word was ridiculous and if you really wanted to make money starting a religion was the way to go. He was a drug-abusing narcissist who terrorized his own children (at least according to his son who left the CoS). This is a cult and a dangerous one at that.

Amen. My mother was a scientologist, and let me tell you from first hand experience... It is a cult. All they want from you is your money and your open mind and they crowd it with all kinds of bullshit. The only reason it was made into a religion was for the tax benefits, which I don't think they deserve. The people that work there make no money and are expected to "volunteer" for like 80 hours a week. I also have an aunt and three cousins into it, and all of them have been divored at least once, sometimes 3 times. They don't allow for marriage. Everything you have "belongs" to the church and the only people making money are the people at the top. When I talk to them it is really sad the things they believe. I actually had one cousin ask me if I was into the "drugs" that all these horrible docters are prescribing. When I told her that I had to take tyroid medicine she told me that if I cleared my mind and body I wouldn't need it. Uh-huh... sure... whatever you say Madame of the Cult. And to add insult to injury I am pretty sure I know that my mother died because of those assholes. They think that the mind can control the body so much that someone with a heart problem doesn't need to take their high blood pressure medicine because some non-regulated herbal medicine is all you need. Your mind can do the rest. Bullshit. My mom died at the young age of 43 with a massive heart attack because of that (I am pretty sure... can't be certain). She wasn't overweight either, so that didn't cause it.

Uhh... Sorry. I just really don't like those people.