Why do I hate the Bush Administration?

[Griff]

PA. GUARDSMEN KILLED IN IRAQ
Five served with Susquehanna County's 109th Infantry

NEW MILFORD, Pa. -- Already reeling from the death of a young soldier last week, several northeastern Pennsylvania communities were dealt a second blow Friday when the Pennsylvania National Guard confirmed that five more soldiers from the region were killed in combat in Iraq...

The five soldiers killed Wednesday were:

* Staff Sgt. Daniel L. Arnold, 27, of Montrose.

* Staff Sgt. George A. Pugliese, 39, of Carbondale.

* Spc. Lee A. Wiegand, 20, of Hallstead.

* Spc. Eric W. Slebodnik, 21, of Greenfield Township .

* Spc. Oliver J. Brown, 19, of Athens...

Guardsman Jason Jemotte of Friendsville, Pa., was burned in a separate incident on Tuesday, said his mother, Rita Gahring.

FU George

[xoxoxoBruce]

Such a waste.

I was talking with my friend Lisa whose husband is an E7 in the army with orders for Iraq in October or November. Apparently they don't give the soldiers and their families definite deployment dates, anymore. At some point Lisa's husband will just leave for work and not come home that day because his unit will have been confined to a holding area for x amount of time, waiting to be shipped out.

Apparently this policy was put in place to minimize the ever increasing numbers of soldiers who go AWOL, shoot themselves in the hand or foot, or fabricate psychiatric symptoms when given orders for Iraq. One of the men in Lisa's husband's unit suffers from a medical condition of some sort that causes him to pass out at unexpected moments (no, he's not on drugs). Lisa's husband, himself, has already had two minor heart attacks.

Both men are still scheduled to be deployed in an active combat unit that will be headed straight for Baghdad. The new rules also make it so that a soldier can be stuck in the military for two years or more LONGER than the time he actually enlisted for. For example, if your enlistment is up on October 15, 2005, and your unit has orders to go to Iraq on November 1, 2005 (give or take 3 or 4 crafty months), too bad for you. You will be deployed overseas with your unit in order to maintain the cohesiveness of your company, and you'll stay the full year PLUS whatever vague alloted amount of time after that year is up. Units need to stick together, right?

I'm so glad we have the war in Iraq to keep our minds off the incompetance of FEMA! Thank you Jr.!

[lookout123]

mari that is pure and utter bullshit. deployment dates shift around a lot, but they don't just mysteriously confine them and ship them out. propaganda is good though, thanks.

Hey, Lookout! Lisa has no reason to lie to me. You are in the reserves, Lisa's husband is in the regular army. That makes a big difference! Plus, aren't you Air Force?

[Undertoad]

We used to have this guy on the Cellar, and he was here for a very long time, and after a while we noticed that every time he spoke authoritatively about just about ANY topic, he was completely and totally WRONG.

Practically any fact, any tidbit of passed-along knowledge, was simply INCORRECT. And it became a game with folks who knew what the story was; behind his back we would mention how wrong he consistently was, and we would take notice of it with every new post containing allegedly factual information.

He was a nice guy, and I agreed with many of his opinions. But for some reason he always had to spout a big steaming pile of false into every thread.

Mari,

Point us to one news story with someone purposefully shooting themselves in the hand or foot to avoid going to Iraq. Post a link to a story which explains the new deployment.

Don't just post a snarky reply. That is easy to do, but accomplishes nothing. Instead, for once, post some external proof that what you have said is correct. Not just the name of some person who would not lie to you. I want to see a story in a reputable newspaper that backs up your information on deployment. This is the Internet, and you should be able to find such a thing. It would be a pretty big story in military towns, so some decent Googling should locate something.

And then you can tell us -- please, do tell us -- which regular army takes narcoleptics and people with major heart conditions. And provide some proof of that too.

[richlevy]

Well, I found articles about suicides during deployment, but nothing about self-inflicted wounds before deployment.

Here is an interesting article on PTSD from 'Iraqi Freedom'.

Bottom line, the next POTUS will have to either budget for a lot of PTSD support or quietly screw over another generation of veterans.

You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ’is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool—you bet that Tommy sees!

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Well, I found... nothing about self-inflicted wounds before deployment.

.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I keep seeing clips on the news of deployments where the families, media and various politicos gather for a ceremony when they ship out. They are probably reserves though.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

We used to have this guy on the Cellar, and he was here for a very long time, and after a while we noticed that every time he spoke authoritatively about just about ANY topic, he was completely and totally WRONG.

Practically any fact, any tidbit of passed-along knowledge, was simply INCORRECT. And it became a game with folks who knew what the story was; behind his back we would mention how wrong he consistently was, and we would take notice of it with every new post containing allegedly factual information.

He was a nice guy, and I agreed with many of his opinions. But for some reason he always had to spout a big steaming pile of false into every thread.

Mari,

Point us to one news story with someone purposefully shooting themselves in the hand or foot to avoid going to Iraq. Post a link to a story which explains the new deployment.

Don't just post a snarky reply. That is easy to do, but accomplishes nothing. Instead, for once, post some external proof that what you have said is correct. Not just the name of some person who would not lie to you. I want to see a story in a reputable newspaper that backs up your information on deployment. This is the Internet, and you should be able to find such a thing. It would be a pretty big story in military towns, so some decent Googling should locate something.

And then you can tell us -- please, do tell us -- which regular army takes narcoleptics and people with major heart conditions. And provide some proof of that too.

If I tell you the truth, that the Army represses such stories and that servicemen who tell tales out of school face repercussions from their superiors and the fellow members of their own units, you will accuse me of making up liberal lies or evading the question.

Needless to say the army does not recruit older men with health problems. However, a man who makes a military career of it and stays in for 20 years, may indeed develop a health problem. This is the case with Lisa's husband and the other man in his outfit she described. They are both senior NCO's.

I am going to give you something better than a news story. I am going to give you the word straight from the keyboards of active duty members of the army. The following quotes are from a discussion group that I occasionally drop in to read, sponsored by the Army Times. If you click on the link I give, you will see that not every poster was in agreement. The split was maybe 50/50. You asked to see the information to back up what Lisa told me. Here it is. The question was "Has today's Army gone soft?"


the new Army relies on technology rather than guts,disapline, and motivation. Which i believe is the reason there are so many troops going AWOL, deserting and committing suicide.

i am a section sergeant and i can tell the difference between the old army and new. this is pathetic that we allow any and everbody into our corp but we can't discipline them. i was told that dropping a soldier would get me a letter of reprimend or cursing at a soldier with a simple word as A-- i dont get it. these are the same soldiers that come drunk on duty, live in sickcall and never show up on time but yet and still i have to send them to the board according to the new promtion (350) system so they can corrupt my soldiers. I have been for 10 years and at this rate i wont make it to 20. we are taking undisciplined kids to war to turn on us or be killed because of laziness or the i dont care attitude. we need our old army back full force.

ok. What is a good soldier, no matter what branch? Someone who is discplined, in good physical shape, who can lead as well as follow, knows his MOS inside out but is willing to learn more? What is the point? Give the armed forces back to the NCO. Someone who is well trained is a reflection of the training unit and the soldier himself. Stress cards? My God, what is it coming to. I remember when the Pentagon used to change policy so often, you had to keep your head in the reg books in order to keep up with them. Teamwork, professionalism, respect, honor is what I had experienced in the service. When did that change or has it?

I agree go back to the old Army,and tell the politicans to back off!

okay, so now you can't do anything to discipline. You might upset the soldier. I was old army and it was rough but it needed to be. If you went to war you were prepared for any situation, but now, I have doubts. A portion of the people joining are just doing it for money or education. They don't think about what they are actually doing. I say go back to the old ways!


I THINK YOU ARE 100% RIGHT ON THAT. THIS NEW ARMY HAS STRESS CARDS ? FOR WHAT. THEY NEED TO GO BACK TO WHEN THE Sr DRILL and DS were in charge FOR EVERYTHING.

I agree that the Army has gotten soft! I went through basic in 92 we got dropped anytime a drill sergeant felt like it. I spent 4yrs Active duty and 7yrs Reserve/Natl Guard. As I was getting out of Active Duty they were just introducing the "Stress Card" at Fort Benning. I am also a spouse to a Active Duty soldier who has been in 16 1/2 yrs and we are currently at Fort Knox. And believe me if you have read about what is going on here in the Army Times I can tell you that I personally would be telling those parents of the three soldiers that accused the Drill Sergeants of mis conduct that their sons WILL NOT make it in the Army. In fact if they ever get deployed they probably wouldn't make it back alive. They do NOT have the toughness, the independence or the will to work as a team player and if ever captured or fired upon they probably would cry to Mommy! I feel sorry for the soldiers that may one day be in a unit with these three privates that have no business being in the United States Army. I believe Basic Training is to weed out the ones that won't make it in the Army. But now they seem to be taking every Tom, Dick and Harry since all the good ones seem to not have any incentive to stay in past their ETS. I feel we need to give these great soldiers that put their lives on the line something worth staying in the military for. But of course this is just my opinion.

Growing up on military bases worldwide, I saw many different 'things.' One thing I constantly saw was my father working before dawn until well after dark. The 'new' Army still has the same basic concept in many aspects, ie kickin @$$ and taking names. What has simply changed are the times. Today's kids who join come from more broken homes and more unstable enviroments than any of us ever did. I am not asking for pity or for sympathy for these guys, for I show no discretion when dealing with them.
What I am getting at is that the Army has become more concerned with the overall well-being of soldiers on a day to day basis. Is that such a bad thing? It can be, depending on the individual. You always have had those who verge on the brink of malingering everytime you have to go to the field or NTC. There are also those who everytime you wish to correct and assign extra trainin/duty to, want to look up the reg's and file EO or whatever. It just seems like there are more of those soldiers out there today and that the Army listens to more and more of them. Back when my father was a Drill and before he retired as a First Sergeant, soldiers dared not even hint that they would NOT follow through with the extra duty or disrespect him or his other NCO's. Today's Army is too laid back at times

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT WE HAVE GOTTEN TO SOFT AS FAR AS DISCIPLINE IS CONCERNED. WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS.
TO MANY NEW SOLDIERS ARE GRADUATING BASIC TRAINING NOT PREPARED FOR THE REGULAR ARMY. THEY ARE UNDISCIPLINED AND NOT IN GOOD ENOUGH PHYSICAL SHAPE TO PASS A PT TEST.
WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DAYS WHEN NCO'S HAD CONTROL.

[Undertoad]

That's 12 paragraphs of cut and paste, and nothing to do with deployment, nothing to do with anyone shooting themselves in the foot (except for you).

If I tell you the truth, that the Army represses such stories

The military can't hide a shot hand or foot. The military can't hide these kinds of deployment changes. The Army isn't deploying a narcoleptic to active combat duty. You're full of crap.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That's 12 paragraphs of cut and paste, and nothing to do with deployment, nothing to do with anyone shooting themselves in the foot (except for you).

The military can't hide a shot hand or foot. The military can't hide these kinds of deployment changes. The Army isn't deploying a narcoleptic to active combat duty. You're full of crap.

They can't? Noone has gone AWOL? It wasn't on the news, so does that mean 0% AWOL? Obviously, some troops are not going to combat. Where the reasons for keeping them for going are, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be posted on the Internet.

Maybe if it was introduced to some Congressional committee there is a record, but I haven't found any figures, which mean that Mari's statement has not been proven or disproven.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That's 12 paragraphs of cut and paste, and nothing to do with deployment, nothing to do with anyone shooting themselves in the foot (except for you).



The military can't hide a shot hand or foot. The military can't hide these kinds of deployment changes. The Army isn't deploying a narcoleptic to active combat duty. You're full of crap.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, UT.

Here's what I did. I joined the Army Times Forum (feeling pretty stupid since I'm not in the military), and I asked all those battle scarred veterans to please forgive me my ignorance, but could they please clarify current deployment procedures for me and the reasons for them. If anybody over there actually deigns to reply to me, I will post their responses here - NO MATTER IF THE REPLIES SUPPORT WHAT I POSTED OR NOT. I, too, am curious and am awaiting enlightenment.

PS What do you think the old Sarge who made the comment "there are so many troops going AWOL, deserting and committing suicide" was talking about? Men ordered to do KP?

[lookout123]

However, a man who makes a military career of it and stays in for 20 years, may indeed develop a health problem. This is the case with Lisa's husband and the other man in his outfit she described. They are both senior NCO's.

if they have a serious diagnosed medical problem, they not worldwide deployable. unfortunately, some people won't allow for proper diagnosis or misrepresent the extent of their issues because they know that if they aren't deployable they are going to have to A) retire, B) separate. if you can't do the job you shouldn't be there to collect the pay. if you are staying in and ignoring severe medical conditions you are putting yourself and fellow soldiers in danger. end of story.

and i work in joint ops mari.

Originally Posted by lookout123

if they have a serious diagnosed medical problem, they not worldwide deployable. unfortunately, some people won't allow for proper diagnosis or misrepresent the extent of their issues because they know that if they aren't deployable they are going to have to A) retire, B) separate. if you can't do the job you shouldn't be there to collect the pay. if you are staying in and ignoring severe medical conditions you are putting yourself and fellow soldiers in danger. end of story.

and i work in joint ops mari.

Thanks, Lookout. I couldn't exactly remember what you did. What Lisa says is that Army doctors have diagnosed her husband's heart problem. He had a mild heart attack a couple of years back which was treated at a military hospital. He's not attempting to hide anything about his health. He still has orders to deploy with a combat unit for Iraq.

PS. Hey! How's Little Lookout? Is he doing better, I hope?