1/23: Kabul dog fight

Undertoad · 01-23-2002, 11:49 AM

Forget about bus kashi (or however it's spelled), you know things are back to normal when the dog fights in Afghanistan return. Perhaps the only thing that the Taliban banned that should remain banned.

I realize this is yet another dog-related image on IotD, and it's not the last either...

The civil aspect of the dog fight: it's not to the death. The losing dog is the dog who runs away first.

01-23-2002, 12:37 PM

Yah, but they banned it for the wrong reason: it was entertainment and might distract them from Allah.

Though I agree, it oughta be banned. Only because it's cruel to the animals, though.

warch · 01-23-2002, 05:10 PM

Lets send them Mike Tyson.

cornelius · 01-23-2002, 05:24 PM

We can't send them Mike Tyson. That would be just as cruel to the dogs. He'll most likely bite them more than the dogs bite each other.

jeni · 01-23-2002, 06:55 PM

his head looked like a pie, so i bit his ear.

heh.

01-23-2002, 07:37 PM

Ooooh Evanda... Your ears are makin' me hONGRY.

juju · 01-24-2002, 12:28 AM

Well hey, humans fight, so why not dogs? Seems like a double-standard if you ask me. Unless the dog doesn't want to fight, in which case i'd imagine that it would run away in the first place, right?

jeni · 01-24-2002, 12:50 AM

i can say, with plenty of confidence, that i am pretty sure the dogs are bred and grown to fight. or if not that, at least taught to specifically do so. which is pretty cruel in that it is not in their nature to be so aggressive towards one another. if it were, dogs would fight like that on the street all the time.

it's like you're taking other things away from their life just so you can get pleasure out of watching them fight. they won't be able to have a great relationship with someone, or another animal, and may end up feeling lonely, etc.

most humans aren't born and raised to fight barehand like that either, and we call it wrong when they are taught to be suicide bombers and hate others because of skin tones, etc. it's the same thing. brainwashing something that should be able to think free of that stuff, if given the chance.

most human beings fight physically over verbal arguments or disagreements, not because they are simply taught to do so. the only instances i can really think of where people train to fight are in boxing cases, wrestling, and such. in which case those people don't train from shortly after birth and can walk away from that at the end of the day.

seeing shows about this sort of thing and just picking up details from those, i gather that the dogs can't do that. they often become very hostile towards even those that train them, not to mention other human beings and animals.

even if the dogs don't kill one another, it's still, in my opinion, not right to train them to fight like that just so the public can watch.

mulgorod · 01-24-2002, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jeni

even if the dogs don't kill one another, it's still, in my opinion, not right to train them to fight like that just so the public can watch.

Hope you're a vegetarian... and now let me explain that statement:

As I see it, raising cattle to be slaughtered for human consumption is no different than raising and training dogs to fight, even to the death.

The slaughter of animals is no less brutal than a dog fight. Generally, they are cut while alive so that they will bleed as much as possible - helps the quality of the meat. If they're lucky, they get a bonk on the noggin' first, to daze them.

The consumption of animals is no more necessary than a dog fight. Both are sheerly for human pleasure. Meat is a luxury. Assuming we were never lost in the wilderness in the winter, every single one of us could survive our entire natural lives without ever consuming meat.

Am I a vegetarian? No. But I won't say that the dog fights are wrong, even though I find them distasteful.

Cheers,
mulgorod

jaguar · 01-24-2002, 07:07 AM

True, but its evil dogfight in a third world country how barbaric! Us developed nations are far better, don't you know? It makes me laugh, a society doesn't need to be primitive to be barbaric. Sorry if i sound pretentious, its a tad tipsy, tata all i'm off to bed.

01-24-2002, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulgorod

Hope you're a vegetarian... and now let me explain that statement:

As I see it, raising cattle to be slaughtered for human consumption is no different than raising and training dogs to fight, even to the death.

Really? So we take cows, put them in cages that are hardly greater than their size, and poke them with sharp sticks and the like so they become as vicious as possible? Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought we just fattened them up and killed 'em. Thanks for that insightful clarification though.

Quote:

The slaughter of animals is no less brutal than a dog fight. Generally, they are cut while alive so that they will bleed as much as possible - helps the quality of the meat. If they're lucky, they get a bonk on the noggin' first, to daze them.

That depends on how you look at it. A dog fight consists of two animals ripping themselves apart, usually to the death. An animal slaughter consists of an animal getting killed real quick. Whether or not that's brutal to you is all a matter of personal opinion and is not irrefutable fact.

Quote:

The consumption of animals is no more necessary than a dog fight. Both are sheerly for human pleasure. Meat is a luxury. Assuming we were never lost in the wilderness in the winter, every single one of us could survive our entire natural lives without ever consuming meat.

WOW. Thanks. Here's what you basically said: Assuming none of us ever had to eat meat, we would never have to eat meat. What if we ARE lost in the wilderness in the winter? What then? I'll tell you: assuming one can kill an animal and find a way to cook it, those that are meat eaters will do alright while those that have never eaten meat will get fucking sick. Physically. I know because my better half is vegetarian, as are most of my friends. They will get ill if they eat meat. You're not very useful if you're sick in the middle of a winter in the wilderness.

Now, on to your "meat is a luxury" statement. Quit being a turd. They're not "sheerly for human pleasure". One is, and the other is beneficial to humans. Meat contains many proteins and vitamins that are essential to properly growing. Sure, you can get them in vitamins, but it's not like they're not in meat either. Blowjobs are just a luxury - meat can serve some real purpose.

Quote:

Am I a vegetarian? No. But I won't say that the dog fights are wrong, even though I find them distasteful.

Wow. So do me a favor. Go back and show me where she said that dog fights were wrong. Your statement about not saying they're wrong is irrelevant because you brought it up. It's nearly the same as ending your argument with "Am I a vegetarian? No. But I won't say that my dick smells, even though I haven't washed it in a month." That's great and all, but YOU brought it up. It's not relevant to the discussion. Jeni didn't say they were wrong either. What's your point?

bluebomber · 01-24-2002, 08:35 AM

dhamsaic -

Thanks for tearing apart that post. It was ridiculous. A couple of quick points:

- We don't put cows in cages that are slightly larger that them and poke them with sticks to make them vicious. Instead we put cows in cages that are slightly smaller than they are, let their hind hooves hang out into the shitstream that runs down the center of the barn so that their hooves get infected. Then we hook them up to milking machines that place a strain on their teats and their teats which get irritated and possibly infected. Finally, if their cages aren't cleaned often enough (which is common), they have to lay in their own shit and their udders get infected.
- Animals that are slaughtered aren't necessarily slaughtered that quickly. Cows, for instance, are hit in the heat with a pistol-bolt gun to stun them, then have their throats cut. If something goes wrong with the gun (or it is mis-aimed), they aren't unconscious when their throats are cut and it can take several minutes for brain function to cease. You can decide whether this is brutal or not; some say yes, some say no.
- If you are lost in the wilderness in the winter, your first priority will NOT be whether or not you can eat meat. You can survive without food for three weeks. You can survive without water for three days. In the wilderness in the winter, good luck surviving overnight if you can't build yourself a decent shelter. But if you insist on being well fed, what makes you think that vegetarian food will be harder to find than meat?

01-24-2002, 08:57 AM

Firstly, the condition of farms is wholly upon the owner, and they are responsible for the livestock. Dairy cows are generally treated better than meat cows because it is not cost effective to let them get sick and die. I've been to a number of dairy farms, and I have no complaints - it all looked good to me. Yes, the shitstream rotating thingy is pretty fuckin' gross, but I never saw a cow actually have to touch it.

As far as finding a vegetarian meal - I think I remember reading one time that like, around winter or something, a lot of stuff kinda "died" and then bloomed again in the spring. But maybe that was a wives' tale?

jeni · 01-24-2002, 01:27 PM

no, i'm not a vegetarian, and let me explain why i'm not a hypocrite for feeling the way i do.

first of all, to eat meat is part of what is called the food chain. i eat meat because it is natural. it helps that i like the taste of meat.

second of all, we don't put the deaths of the cows and chickens and whatever other meat we eat out for the public to watch and get enjoyment from.

third of all, as dave mentioned, we don't train the cows to kill one another.

YES, in my opinion, it is not right to raise an animal to fight another animal. that is brainwashing, and that is bad, in my opinion. your opinion may differ, but i certainly hope you are a vegetarian if you think the KKK is bad.

-rolls her eyes-

mulgorod · 01-24-2002, 10:59 PM

Why so much vitriol dham? Getting tired of all the new posters on cellar? I've been lurking for about 3 months now, and in my experience that's sure not like you.

Hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot. I'm not trying to run in here and start preaching (you'll notice that the above was my frist p0st) - I just thought that we might get some interesting conversation out of examining what some might consider to be hypocrisy caused by cultural presumptions.

To respond to what you've said, point by point:

You agreed that it's a matter of opinion whether or not a cow slaughter is as brutal as a dog fight. You also mentioned you've been to a dairy farm. Well, some of my friends are ranchers. I've seen cow slaughters. Contrary to popular beleif, cows are not dumb. When the first blood is spilled, they smell it, and they freak. They are scared. When there's 300 plus cows to kill, the last one gets to spend all day in sheer terror of what's to come.

Next, you refuted that meat was necessary. Then you acknowledged that the same stuff in meat can be had from vitamins (pills, I presumed you meant) and vegetables. Which is it?

Finally you asked me to point out where jeni said it was wrong. Well, you got me there, she didn't say it's wrong, she said it's "not right". I quoted that in my first post. If there's a subtle difference between "wrong" and "not right", it escapes me right now, but I could just be tired.

01-23-2002, 11:49 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	1/23: Kabul dog fight Forget about bus kashi (or however it's spelled), you know things are back to normal when the dog fights in Afghanistan return. Perhaps the only thing that the Taliban banned that should remain banned. I realize this is yet another dog-related image on IotD, and it's not the last either... The civil aspect of the dog fight: it's not to the death. The losing dog is the dog who runs away first.

01-23-2002, 12:37 PM	#2
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Yah, but they banned it for the wrong reason: it was <b>entertainment</b> and might <b>distract them from Allah</b>. Though I agree, it oughta be banned. Only because it's cruel to the animals, though.

01-23-2002, 05:24 PM	#4
cornelius Fine drunken debauchery Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 18	We can't send them Mike Tyson. That would be just as cruel to the dogs. He'll most likely bite them more than the dogs bite each other. __________________ Misery doesn't love company. Misery loves a good bottle of vodka!

01-24-2002, 12:50 AM	#8
jeni is stuck on altair-4 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: santa cruz, california Posts: 514	i can say, with plenty of confidence, that i am pretty sure the dogs are bred and grown to fight. or if not that, at least taught to specifically do so. which is pretty cruel in that it is not in their nature to be so aggressive towards one another. if it were, dogs would fight like that on the street all the time. it's like you're taking other things away from their life just so you can get pleasure out of watching them fight. they won't be able to have a great relationship with someone, or another animal, and may end up feeling lonely, etc. most humans aren't born and raised to fight barehand like that either, and we call it wrong when they are taught to be suicide bombers and hate others because of skin tones, etc. it's the same thing. brainwashing something that should be able to think free of that stuff, if given the chance. most human beings fight physically over verbal arguments or disagreements, not because they are simply taught to do so. the only instances i can really think of where people train to fight are in boxing cases, wrestling, and such. in which case those people don't train from shortly after birth and can walk away from that at the end of the day. seeing shows about this sort of thing and just picking up details from those, i gather that the dogs can't do that. they often become very hostile towards even those that train them, not to mention other human beings and animals. even if the dogs don't kill one another, it's still, in my opinion, not right to train them to fight like that just so the public can watch. Last edited by jeni; 01-24-2002 at 12:54 AM.

01-24-2002, 07:07 AM	#10
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	True, but its evil dogfight in a third world country how barbaric! Us developed nations are far better, don't you know? It makes me laugh, a society doesn't need to be primitive to be barbaric. Sorry if i sound pretentious, its a tad tipsy, tata all i'm off to bed. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

01-23-2002, 05:10 PM	#3
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Lets send them Mike Tyson.

01-23-2002, 06:55 PM	#5
jeni is stuck on altair-4 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: santa cruz, california Posts: 514	his head looked like a pie, so i bit his ear. heh.

01-23-2002, 07:37 PM	#6
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Ooooh Evanda... Your ears are makin' me hONGRY.

01-24-2002, 12:28 AM	#7
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well hey, humans fight, so why not dogs? Seems like a double-standard if you ask me. Unless the dog doesn't want to fight, in which case i'd imagine that it would run away in the first place, right?

01-24-2002, 08:35 AM	#12
bluebomber Lurking in the Shadows Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NH, US Posts: 20	dhamsaic - Thanks for tearing apart that post. It was ridiculous. A couple of quick points: - We don't put cows in cages that are slightly larger that them and poke them with sticks to make them vicious. Instead we put cows in cages that are slightly smaller than they are, let their hind hooves hang out into the shitstream that runs down the center of the barn so that their hooves get infected. Then we hook them up to milking machines that place a strain on their teats and their teats which get irritated and possibly infected. Finally, if their cages aren't cleaned often enough (which is common), they have to lay in their own shit and their udders get infected. - Animals that are slaughtered aren't necessarily slaughtered that quickly. Cows, for instance, are hit in the heat with a pistol-bolt gun to stun them, then have their throats cut. If something goes wrong with the gun (or it is mis-aimed), they aren't unconscious when their throats are cut and it can take several minutes for brain function to cease. You can decide whether this is brutal or not; some say yes, some say no. - If you are lost in the wilderness in the winter, your first priority will NOT be whether or not you can eat meat. You can survive without food for three weeks. You can survive without water for three days. In the wilderness in the winter, good luck surviving overnight if you can't build yourself a decent shelter. But if you insist on being well fed, what makes you think that vegetarian food will be harder to find than meat? __________________ The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -- Jefferson

01-24-2002, 08:57 AM	#13
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Firstly, the condition of farms is wholly upon the owner, and they are responsible for the livestock. Dairy cows are generally treated better than meat cows because <b>it is not cost effective to let them get sick and die</b>. I've been to a number of dairy farms, and I have no complaints - it all looked good to me. Yes, the shitstream rotating thingy is pretty fuckin' gross, but I never saw a cow actually have to touch it. As far as finding a vegetarian meal - I think I remember reading one time that like, around winter or something, a lot of stuff kinda "died" and then bloomed again in the spring. But maybe that was a wives' tale?

01-24-2002, 01:27 PM	#14
jeni is stuck on altair-4 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: santa cruz, california Posts: 514	no, i'm not a vegetarian, and let me explain why i'm not a hypocrite for feeling the way i do. first of all, to eat meat is part of what is called the food chain. i eat meat because it is natural. it helps that i like the taste of meat. second of all, we don't put the deaths of the cows and chickens and whatever other meat we eat out for the public to watch and get enjoyment from. third of all, as dave mentioned, we don't train the cows to kill one another. YES, in my opinion, it is not right to raise an animal to fight another animal. that is brainwashing, and that is bad, in my opinion. your opinion may differ, but i certainly hope you are a vegetarian if you think the KKK is bad. -rolls her eyes- Last edited by jeni; 01-24-2002 at 01:31 PM.

01-24-2002, 10:59 PM	#15
mulgorod Writer of Writings Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14	Why so much vitriol dham? Getting tired of all the new posters on cellar? I've been lurking for about 3 months now, and in my experience that's sure not like you. Hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot. I'm not trying to run in here and start preaching (you'll notice that the above was my frist p0st) - I just thought that we might get some interesting conversation out of examining what some might consider to be hypocrisy caused by cultural presumptions. To respond to what you've said, point by point: You agreed that it's a matter of opinion whether or not a cow slaughter is as brutal as a dog fight. You also mentioned you've been to a dairy farm. Well, some of my friends are ranchers. I've seen cow slaughters. Contrary to popular beleif, cows are not dumb. When the first blood is spilled, they smell it, and they freak. They are scared. When there's 300 plus cows to kill, the last one gets to spend all day in sheer terror of what's to come. Next, you refuted that meat was necessary. Then you acknowledged that the same stuff in meat can be had from vitamins (pills, I presumed you meant) and vegetables. Which is it? Finally you asked me to point out where jeni said it was wrong. Well, you got me there, she didn't say it's wrong, she said it's "not right". I quoted that in my first post. If there's a subtle difference between "wrong" and "not right", it escapes me right now, but I could just be tired. Last edited by mulgorod; 01-24-2002 at 11:09 PM.

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