Jesus Camp

[Pangloss62]

There's this new documentary that's getting a lot of buzz. I watched the trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE and was immediately scared. Not like The Ring scared, but like "Holy shit! This is really happening" scared. It made me mad, too.

What makes me mad is this notion that it's the obligation of parents to indoctrinate their children into THEIR particular religious worldview rather than let them develop their own perspectives through time. Since this indoctrination takes place very early, the kids must eventually reconcile their religion with the reality around them as they grow up. Some can do this rather well, and seem to retain the humanistic qualities of their parents' religion and leave behind the fanatical and irrational qualities, arriving at a sort of benign compromise. Others carry the banner of their parents' religion and move further and further away from our evil secular society, choosing friends of similar worldview and trying to inject their faith into our political and legal systems of governance. The latter seem to be a growing group, a disturbing voting bloc. This is why you see Democrats pandering to them, making sure they use the word "god" and "faith" in their speeches. Most of these Democrats are the benign compromisers, but they are forced to sound more "fundamental" than they are. And this brings me to a sad but true point:

There could NEVER be an atheist president. Think about it. Condi Rice (Black Woman), Lieberman (Jew) Hillary (Wellesley College lesbian), are at least mentioned, but if anybody publically stated that they were "Godless," as beautiful Ann Coulter calls us, it would be over in terms of holding high office (yes Tommy, I know). But wouldn't being "Godless" be a good quality for a president? One's decisions and actions would be intrinsically free from religious bias. People of all religions (and there are a lot of them) could be sure the President would not play favorites. But it could never happen because "Godless" means "Goodless" for most Christians. That's what really burns me up about the title of Coulter's alleged "book." The presumption is that people who are "godless" must be, ipso facto, "bad" people.

Not only is that wrong, it's insulting (imagine, Ann Coulter insulting people).

I know a lot of people who went to Christian schools or were raised Jewish and are of other faiths now... it does not matter.
You decide on your own when you are old enough.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

What makes me mad is this notion that it's the obligation of parents to indoctrinate their children into THEIR particular religious worldview rather than let them develop their own perspectives through time.

Does this really surprise you? I mean, the job of a parent is to teach their kids. If a parent thinks something is true, they will pass that along to their kids. They aren't going to teach their kids something they don't believe in. It's been going on since the beginning of time. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." "A chip off the old block." etc.

All truth is subjective... do you teach your kid that murder is wrong?
Same thing.

[Sundae]

I was raised as a Catholic. I went to a Convent school until I was 12 and went to Mass until I was 16. The first festival (as in music festival) I ever attended at 15 was called Greenbelt, and it was a Christian music festival. I was only allowed to attend because it was a Christian festival, but to adolescents - trust me - it was a way to get a camping holiday, listen to music and comedy and stay up as late as you liked with your friends without your parents worrying!

There was a meeting every day called The Rolling Magazine - it was a madhouse. Games called Sieve 'Ed (running round the tent with various substances held in a sieve above your head) Egg Chuck (yup, fresh eggs - catch & you stand a pace apart) etc etc etc. Volunteers for these games nearly had a fit trying to catch Pip's attention. At 15, when we all wanted to be adults & drink & have sex. Amazing.

And we got to meet other people our age who believed in God. It was the love that dared not speak its name. Are you going to ask a classmate if they know Jesus? Not if you're not part of an evangelical church you're not!

Now we weren't taught hatred. Or aggression. Pip told us all - you are a beautiful human person. You need to hear that at 15. And when we graduated to The Very Stinking Late Show at 17 we needed to hear it just as much.

But I say - let Christian youngsters have their fun. They're living in a world where people on tv routinely break the 10 Commandments. Life is confusing for them. With any luck they'll graduate to accept a wider world view. But like Fat Camp - give them a chance not to feel like freaks.

(btw I got drunk & sucked cock @ Greenbelt. Just not at my 1st one. I guess the debbil told me to do it)

[Pangloss62]

Does this really surprise you? I mean, the job of a parent is to teach their kids. If a parent thinks something is true, they will pass that along to their kids. They aren't going to teach their kids something they don't believe in. It's been going on since the beginning of time. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." "A chip off the old block." etc.

Religious indoctrination is NOT teaching. Secondly, not everyone indoctrinates their children. I know of several couples who "teach" their children about the world around them, consequences of actions, etc. Religion enters into it only as an anthropological concept: "Some people believe..." Some would say such "godless" teaching is bad and provides no moral or ethical foundation, but I disagree. I can think of a lot of things that "have been going on since the beginning of time;" that's a sorry basis for keeping them going.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

(btw I got drunk & sucked cock @ Greenbelt. Just not at my 1st one. I guess the debbil told me to do it)

This one time, at Jesus camp...

[Sundae]

The only regret I have about being an atheist is that if I have children I can't give them the framework I was given growing up.

Apart from anything else, a working knowledge of the Bible puts you ahead in English Literature, And aside from that it is great to grow up secure that someone, somewhere loves you. Even when your Dad has said the ultimate, "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed"

I say teach a child tolerance and if you are an agnostic, bring them up in a religion. How can they choose a disciplined life if they have no experience of it?

[Pangloss62]

Yeah, SG, I'm a lapsed Catholic, and my Catholic school, church, and CCD classes did not kill me. But I've seen what hard-core Catholicism has done to my mom and our relationship.

I recognize cool religious things like the Inverted Arch at Wells Cathedral, all the "smells and bells" of the Catholic Mass, the scary paintings of the stations of the cross etc. I don't know. I don't and likely won't have kids anyway, so it's a moot point.

There are societies/cultures that are basically agnostic and/or atheist. I think of France and perhaps the Netherlands here. I don't know. It's the fanaticism I see, and the literalism. I think the Bible DOES have some life lessons to offer, but people tend to mix those up with righteousness. I don't know.

Maybe this is why I like the modernists (Klee, Kandinsky, Miro, etc.).

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

The only regret I have about being an atheist is that if I have children I can't give them the framework I was given growing up.

I was brought up as an atheist. I am a proud, third-generation atheist. I was brough up with a very strong framework, thankyouverymuch! "Don't hit him -- how would you feel if he hit you?" Where does Jesus fit in that framework? It's a bit like a fish without a bicycle.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Apart from anything else, a working knowledge of the Bible puts you ahead in English Literature,

Agreed. I was livid when I got dinged for not knowing how old JHC was when they axed him. Asked my 10th grade english teacher how the hell a non-believer was responsible for knowing the contents of her bible. Told her I'd take the hit for my lack of knowledge if she could show knowledge of say, the Koran. Nearly got me into the principal's office.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

And aside from that it is great to grow up secure that someone, somewhere loves you. Even when your Dad has said the ultimate, "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed"

Guess what? It's not true. "The Universe doesn't love you" is a much better piece of philosophy, because it's demonstrably true. Lying to a child isn't likely to help them in the long run.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I say teach a child tolerance and if you are an agnostic, bring them up in a religion. How can they choose a disciplined life if they have no experience of it?

They can choose discipline if their role models (ie. their parents!) are disciplined.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Pie

Guess what? It's not true. "The Universe doesn't love you"

That is not true. I am proof. The Universe DOES love you. It even loves Pie.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Brianna

It even loves Pie.

Everybody loves Pie!

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Brianna

That is not true. I am proof. The Universe DOES love you. It even loves Pie.

Bri, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the universe is just using you for sex.

But don't despair, it's the universe who should feel cheap and ashamed for taking advantage of your trust. We all love you.

[limey]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

The only regret I have about being an atheist is that if I have children I can't give them the framework I was given growing up.....How can they choose a disciplined life if they have no experience of it?

I grew up an atheist (not with Pie's splendid pedigree, however!) and I had a framework. What I really resent is how, in Britain, the Church of England is seen as being the moral arbiter on every questions, as if it were not possible to have a moral stance on a question without the Christian god telling you what to think. You, Sundae Girl, seem to be saying the same thing. Tell m this isn't true!

[Meiso]

I went to a Christian primary school and, while the school was officially secular, my secondary school was also Christian (C of E). All assemblies were Christian (without much regard for those in the school who -weren't- Christian) and we had RE lessons which were very much designed to promote Christianity. I've not got a huge problem with this; I understand the arguments for it, although I found it a little baffling that we also had lessons designed to try and promote autonomous thinking (though I am not inferring Christianity and autonomous thought are mutually exclusive, I found it odd we were told what we should believe but then told we should make up our own minds).

Anyway, I had a Christian education but I have grown up not to be Christian. The main cause for this was the manner of the Christian figureheads. I remember in my primary school, when children expressed doubt in CofE, the Rev would get very, very, very mad. I mean, throwing things across the room mad. By secondary school, those that expressed that they did not wish to take part in Christian assemblies or sing hymns were subjected to ridicule infront of the whole school (usually forced to choose between what would result in weeks of detention or to get up on stage in front of 1000+ pupils and sing a a hymn solo). Mercifully, this stopped when we progressed through the years.

I didn't, and still don't, understand how a truth which is supposed to be self-evident in the world (e.g. God) is forced upon children. If I were to discover faith in an omnipotent being, I thing the relationship with him would be far more profound if i were find it myself and then do the whole letting him into my life type of thing.

When i see things such as that documentary, I just want to know why the camp is doing it - for the souls of the children, or to bolster the support of their agenda?

Ah well.