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06-15-2007, 12:31 PM
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#1 |
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Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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Playing "Crash/Ride" Beats...
This is a big thing now. Once upon a time, time was kept on closed high-hats. Then slushy hats, then open hats, and finally, as there's nowhere else to go, tracks are now being recorded with a full-on crash cymbal as the timekeeper.
You know, "Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash" ... This might come off in the studio, or in a stadium, but in a small-to-medium-sized room, I just cringe at using this ridiculously high dynamic level. I used to simulate this sound with smaller crash cymbals, but they lose their stick definition as a trade-off for the lesser volume. I tried crashing my ride, but that's even more wash and even less stick definition. I think I found something that works, but I'm not sure how it sounds to the audience (I'm playing in a plexiglass booth, mic'd over the PA, to a church service in a converted gymnasium... and yes, it's a very contemporary service): I lay the shoulder of the stick into the bow (not the edge) of an 18" crash. Plenty of wash, plenty of bombast, but not tinnitis-inducing volume. To feel that the time is still being kept (they probably use a click track in the studio when they record stuff like this) I play a stepped high-hat note with every crashed 8th note. So it's a big wash with a clear note underneath. "Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash" + "chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick"
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****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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06-15-2007, 06:29 PM
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#2 |
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Only looks like a disaster tourist
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: above 7,000 feet
Posts: 7,208
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Wow! And I thought drumming was just whack, whack, whack, bam.
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06-15-2007, 09:51 PM
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#3 |
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Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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Well, stop listening to the White Stripes.
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06-15-2007, 09:58 PM
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#4 |
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Only looks like a disaster tourist
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: above 7,000 feet
Posts: 7,208
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The White Stripes are excellent!
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06-15-2007, 10:18 PM
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#5 |
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Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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Undertoad, I'd be interested in a bass player's perspective:
...if the album has a "crash-ride beat" what do you like to hear live? I know you've done covers...
__________________
****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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06-15-2007, 10:21 PM
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#6 |
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I can hear my ears
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,571
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do you think the white sripes have a bad drummer? i dont. my friend does. cuz he read it in rolling stone. but i feeeeel it
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This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan |
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06-16-2007, 09:00 AM
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#7 |
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Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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Meg does suck, but the music is written around her sucking. When you simplify, you emphasize other aspects of the music, which is part of the point of rock and/or roll.
I don't think I've done anything with a full on crash like that. The closest is probably Baba O'Reilly. My current drummer comes from a metal attitude, is usually too loud for the room anyway and we wind up playing very loud. I control his dynamics by leaning over when we go to a soft section. This is my only beef with the guy because otherwise he is excellent. In particular his meter is perfect. |
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06-21-2007, 12:00 PM
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#8 | |
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Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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Quote:
__________________
****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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06-16-2007, 09:06 AM
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#9 |
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Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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I guess the chorus of "All the Small Things" is crash on the beat. I hate it. My job is to play eighth notes the whole time. I hate songs like that. Live, I can't tell from dick because the stage monitor mix is usually a crap shoot and it's rare I have my own monitor anyway.
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08-10-2007, 03:53 PM
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#10 | ||
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Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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Quote:
Quote:
when you're getting so much bounce-back from the PA that you don't know where the actual beat is.
__________________
****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio |
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08-10-2007, 04:11 PM
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#11 |
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Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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We had 4 hours to record "25 or 6 to 4", in the loft of a barn, with a laptop and our own mics (the usual Shures, ideal for live, not usually used for recording).
The only way to do it was to use the electronic kit, and then record each of us one at a time. He went first. And that was that. No click track needed. At the end they re-recorded the cymbals for some reason, but that was it, Chuck's work was done. That recording got us into the semi-finals, 16 out of what they told us was hundreds of entries! |
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08-10-2007, 04:19 PM
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#12 | ||
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Snowflake
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
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I read that Dave Grohl, on a Queens of the Stone Age album, recorded the drums (skins) without the cymbals; then later tracked the cymbal parts, to get an ultra-discrete drum sound. Of course, in order to do this, he had to have the whole thing charted out.
Not entirely relevant, but your comment just reminded me of that. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
****************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio Last edited by Flint; 08-10-2007 at 04:31 PM. Reason: fixing double-post |
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08-10-2007, 04:34 PM
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#13 |
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Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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Returning to the point of the thread, I guess the thing about crash beats is that they dominate so much of the song. It's one thing if you're insane, and want to demonstrate that ala Keith Moon. But it doesn't allow for as much of the rest of the song through. You would absolutely want a kick within the crash to serve as a stronger focus for the beat, that's a great idea.
A crash is a very imprecise beat for people. Interesting to consider that Moon required a very reliable partner in Entwistle, in order for the whole thing to work at all. And one could argue, and I would argue, that the Who was the least beat-oriented bands going. Which is why I myself don't really like them. |
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