1/26/2005: Hindu swastika

[Undertoad]

According to Hindu mythology, Swastika is the sign of prosperity. It wasn't their fault that it came to represent Nazism and thus a kind of evil. And so Hindus have launched a campaign to reclaim the swastika from its Nazi past and reinstate the 5,000-year-old emblem as a symbol of good luck.

Marketing is important, even to religions and schools of thought. But in this case they have a pretty difficult way to go. I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is.

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

[glatt]

I remember seeing swastikas in the Southwest in rock paintings by the Navahos? or another native american tribe. I thought some damn punk kids had vandalized the place, but found out later I was wrong.

[Beestie]

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

(Pronunciation Key)swas·ti·ka Listen: [ swst-k ]
n.
An ancient cosmic or religious symbol formed by a Greek cross with the ends of the arms bent at right angles in either a clockwise or a counterclockwise direction.
Such a symbol with a clockwise bend to the arms, used as the emblem of the Nazi party and of the German state under Adolf Hitler, officially adopted in 1935.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.]

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

[Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.]

But did the Nazis first call that symbol a swastika, or were the Hindus already calling it that?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

I think Swastika is the original name. The German name is "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross).

I'm all for the reclaiming.

I am actually very concerned by the trend of Germany, and Europe in general to outlaw the Swastika, or other signs and symbols of the NSDAP.

Reminds me far to much of Winston Smith carefully correcting the news.

It also makes it easier for the Holocaust deniers to deny things, if their existance is wiped away, piece by piece.

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by wolf

I think Swastika is the original name. The German name is "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross).

I'm all for the reclaiming.

I am actually very concerned by the trend of Germany, and Europe in general to outlaw the Swastika, or other signs and symbols of the NSDAP.

Reminds me far to much of Winston Smith carefully correcting the news.

It also makes it easier for the Holocaust deniers to deny things, if their existance is wiped away, piece by piece.

Absolutely. That's why some of the most valuable exhibits in the holocaust museums are the documents that verify a Nazi conspiracy to systematically murder Jews, gypsies, and other 'undesirables'. I notice those are some of the most prominently displayed items.

[Happy Monkey]

Apparently they hired some British royalty to help their marketing effort...

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

I don't think it's that strange, since just about everything in our culture is one symbol or another. Even the physical objects we surround ourselves do double duty as symbols (cars, clothes). And symbols have all the power we assign to them. The collective power of social investment in a symbol is what gives it its meaning.

This particular symbol is about as powerful as a symbol gets, not just because of what it stands for, but also for the sheer number of people on this planet that know the symbol. It truly transcends the boundary of any one culture. Which is why this effort by the Hindus is not just insensitive to the rest of the world, but doomed to failure. It's not their symbol anymore.

[Troubleshooter]

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

[mmmmbacon]

(edited to add this quote)

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being.

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

How do you think Jews feel about that picture?

Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Please don't use the royals as an example for anything, it can only hurt your credibility.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened.

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

It's not diluting something to return it to the 5000 +/- meaning it has carried. Quite the opposite I believe.

And as to mixed messages, it's not sending a mixed message. A hindu walking around with a swastika around his neck as a talisman is only doing it for himself.

[mmmmbacon]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

(regarding Jews): Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Well, as you mentioned, it's probably had 5000 meanings in the past. What's important is, what does that symbol mean now, and to whom? Maybe you're right, that the millions of Hindus still use the swastika as a symbol of peace, even now. I honestly don't know. That would surprise the hell out of me though, if true.

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

No, I'm objecting not because I'm afraid Jews will be offended by Hindus trying to reclaim this as a symbol of peace, but because to do so dishonors those who have died at the hands of a man wearing a swastika.

Actually, I'm objecting precisely because I want people to continue to be offended by the swastika. I want it to stand as a reminder of what we're all capable of if we allow ourselves, like the German people did, to become the tools of a tyrannical government in the service of slaughtering 'inferior' people. Genocide is happening right now, somewhere. Let people everywhere know what the swastika means - and it don't mean peace. Sorry, Hindus.

If anything, anyone who supports the Hindus here is more of a PC policeman than I am! You're more concerned with the cultural sensitivities of the Hindu and their symbol, than about a very important lesson in human history. Bottom line is, the swastika is about learning from our history and not condemning ourselves to repeat the mistakes of our past. Let's not lose that lesson just because Hindus say "it was our symbol first!" (besides, would anyone be surprised if they stole it from another culture?)

[mitheral]

Originally Posted by mmmmbacon

(edited to add this quote)
Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

But it only a symbol/reminder of the Nazis to the western world. For 700 million Hindus it's meaning is much different. Even if they never convince the rest of the world to use the swastika (I doubt we'll ever see that hockey team in Edmonton again) at least they can build awareness that the symbol has two meanings. That way the number of ignorant knee jerkers who see a swastika and start pointing and yelling Nazi will be reduced.

If the Nazis had chosen the cross would you be calling for every christian to stop using that symbol?

[i Love India]

Originally Posted by mitheral

But it only a symbol/reminder of the Nazis to the western world. For 700 million Hindus it's meaning is much different. Even if they never convince the rest of the world to use the swastika (I doubt we'll ever see that hockey team in Edmonton again) at least they can build awareness that the symbol has two meanings. That way the number of ignorant knee jerkers who see a swastika and start pointing and yelling Nazi will be reduced.

If the Nazis had chosen the cross would you be calling for every christian to stop using that symbol?

I completly agree with you. In hindi it is called a swastik and the Nazi took the symbol from Hinduism and used it in a bad very. In India and Hindus all over the world still use it. Why not, it is our relgious symbol. Just like the person before me said "If the Nazis had choosen the cross would you be calling for every christan to stop using that symbol?" The anwser is no you wouldn't because American's always think that they are right and they are the best. The fact is you are not. As a country, America, we need to start showing respect to all people around the world. And before you talk about something make sure you know what you are talking about because most people here don't even know the TRUE meaning of the swastik and just think it is a bad symbol. I am hindu and I use the symbol because its meaning has not changed for thousands of years and never will just because some dumb people used it in a bad way does not mean we bad! Thank you, that is all.