What would it take?

[Radar]

What would it take for you to take part in an armed revolution against the current United States government?

I've thought about this a lot over the years. The founders went to war when the British made them pay something like 4% tax on tea. What would it take now for people to stand up and fight? People aren't up in arms when we have a rigged election. So what would it take for YOU to get so mad, you'd stand up and fight?

Personally speaking, if gun restrictions get any tighter, I'd be willing to do it. It might even take less than that for me.

So what line could the U.S. government cross, that would make you stand up and fight against them?

[Pie]

Ummm.. If I told you that, I'd wind up in Gitmo.
However, I have enjoyed this site:

StudentsforOrwell.org collects and documents the steady progress the U.S. government has been making towards acheiving Ingsoc's three major ideals: War is Peace - Freedom is Slavery - Ignorance is Strength

[Radar]

Making private gun ownership illegal would do it for me.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Radar

Making private gun ownership illegal would do it for me.

Yet you still live in California.

I really don't think the sheeple are up for it. Bread and circuses are too plentiful.

[Tonchi]

All I can say is for the first time in my life I understand perfectly how a person or group could feel that political assasination is a valid solution to a country's problems. (I UNDERSTAND that feeling, not that I have any intentions or ability to act on it)

We might as well assume that Fatherland Security will be monitoring stuff like this post, but what the hell, they can put what I say in the file those idiots in the FBI started on me back in the 60's.

[BigMcLargeHuge]

our system of government? a revolution? armed? pah.

Our government has a revolution every 4 years, nay? The stupid people vote for the stupid candidates. There's your revolution. go get yourself elected. I'll vote for you.

[WabUfvot5]

Problem with a revolt is logistics. Gov has the tech, spin control (media, etc), man power, and anything else need to quash an uprising fast. Given everything it's very possible the resistance would be in vain without proper planning.

[smoothmoniker]

I see alot of people dodging the question. He's not asking why it won't work, why people aren't anxious to revolt. He's asking what set of conditions would cause you to take up arms. This is actually a fascinating question, Radar. I need to mull it for a bit.

[glatt]

If I recall correctly, the Declaration of Independence actually lists the transgressions that must occur before an uprising is appropriate. It wasn't until all of the following happened that our Founding Fathers felt it was time to revolt. What the hell, I'll quote the whole thing. I'm sure Radar is very familiar with this document. It's worth a read if you haven't read it in a while:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

As much as I hate Bush, I don't think we are there yet. It took more than taxes to do it, according to this document. I would say it should take more than banning guns. It should take a lot.

[Undertoad]

I would not. I would simply move. It's far easier and one-way air tickets are very cheap.

[Radar]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

It seems to me the only qualification the founders made was that when government became destructive towards the ends of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness, it's appropriate to take action against that government. They also warned that such a decision shouldn't be taken lightly and that it should be the result of a long chain of abuses and usurpations.

I doubt many would disagree that the U.S. government is guilty of a long chain of abuses, and usurpations of power or that it's currently working against the cause of liberty, and often the persuit of happiness.

smoothmoniker was correct in bringing up the fact that I'm not asking whether or not you think an armed uprising would be successful. I just want to know, what would push you beyond the breaking point. What would it take for you to stand up and fight the government with deadly force?

Would it take the murder of your family as they did with Randy Weaver or the people in Waco? Would it take the government stealing everything from you without charging you with a crime as they often do with anonymous tips they get about drug sales? Would it take the government claiming that your property was theirs to give away to any private person that wants it as they have recently in supreme court decisions?

There must be something that would make you stand up and say, "NO MORE!!!"

Undertoad has said there is nothing that would cause him to stand up and fight. He'd go elsewhere. This can only work for a short time though because America and the UN seek to control everything around the world. Eventually tyrrany will reach every corner of the world so at some point you have nowhere to run to.

What would it take for you to fight?

[Radar]

Here's a scenario...

Let's say someone makes the ultimate computer virus. It takes out every single bank, every single credit agency, the government, etc. and the economy of America collapses resulting in Marshall law. The government is doing door to door searches, and people are starving as they did during the great depression. The government won't allow anyone to leave the country, and most countries around the world don't want our people because of the burdon on them and because of our previous foreign policies causing wars which led to someone creating the virus in the first place. They don't want to suffer the same fate for helping us.

The government wants to take your guns so you can't defend yourself against looters and other criminals, or even the government itself.

Would you do it then?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Radar

The government wants to take your guns so you can't defend yourself against looters and other criminals, or even the government itself.

Would you do it then?

"No guns here Mr. Tepper."

[Elspode]

As Wolf said, beer and ciruses are too plentiful, but if it *did* get a lot worse, I wonder if our military would enforce the will of the government at all...

Our soldiers, cops and FBI agents are Americans first and foremost, and therefore subject to the same desire for wealth and comfort as the rest of us. Take that away, and perhaps they'd desert in droves, leaving no one to force the rest of the peons to do anything but fend for themselves.

In the end, it is likely that whoever ended up with the most guns and guys would be the king/president/CEO/whatever.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Elspode

Our soldiers, cops and FBI agents are Americans first and foremost, and therefore subject to the same desire for wealth and comfort as the rest of us.

I'm not sure about that. I think a lot of these folks crave order over any of the values you expressed or even those expressed in the Dec of Ind. Even back at the founding you had your centralizers who didn't have liberty at the top of their agenda. I'd say most Americans would choose order over comfort let alone revolution. My assumption was always that I'd just leave because our society doesn't want what I want. We really wouldn't be welcome elsewhere if we waited for the poop to hit the prop. I think the gradual elimination of property rights (my issue) would be such that I could see it happening before it became critical and get to someplace too remote for govthugs to worry about for a long time.