11/15/2004: Marine's bridge message

[Jacque Strapp]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

What else can you do? Well shit man; this is the Internet era; find the highest figure you can and trumpet it to the land. Let every echo chamber ring!

Just don't call that approach "reality-based".

The highest figure is 194,000, 100,000 was the median. The *lowest* figure I've seen is 14,400, from www.iraqbodycount.org, which only reports verifiable deaths reported in the news. Perhaps if the US armed forces would start keeping track of civilian casualties, speculation wouldn't be as necessary, but as Tommy Franks says, 'We don't do body counts'.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jinx

Well fill us in then UT, what's the real number?

I think he may be shooting for the whole, "there's too little information and much disinformation for us to judge" angle, with which I agree.

[Undertoad]

I'm not going to give a number partly because it IS impossible to come up with any reliable one. What you kind of have to do is extrapolate from all the information you do know. Combined with a bit of common sense.

For example, the 100,000 is said to come from air strikes. OK, in such a situation you would expect to also see a higher number of wounded - not just higher actually but much higher, in ratios of like 3 to 1. In order for that to be the case we would have reporting on the massive humanitarian nightmare, more kids without arms and legs, etc. When half the country is essentially at peace it would represent an emormous percentage of the population in the rest of it.

And what you have now, with the net, is a large population of people with an interest in passing along horrible "news" without much interest in confirming any of it. Of course in this case a necessary belief that the US Mil is 100% evil is also necessary, else the "news" would not be passed along.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I think he may be shooting for the whole, "there's too little information and much disinformation for us to judge" angle, with which I agree.

Ok... but.. then what? We should just not worry about it? Go back to watching Oprah and Survivor and forget about that whole 'war' thing we got going on? Because we don't know the actual number of deaths we're off the hook?

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But in the above image he's blacked over the "PS Fuck You" and is posting another P.S., which you make out here: "Dark Horse". I guess that's his nom de guerre.

This may also be a gesture of solidarity with the Army's 11th armored calvary division - the "black horse" regiment which has served honorably on many a battlefield. It was deployed to southern Germany during the early years of the Cold War and patrolled the German-Czech border. Later, the unit became a legendary fighting force in Vietnam and Cambodia for 5 ½ years, earning 14 battle streamers, and three Medals of Honor.

The 11th's assignments including patroling the border near Bad Hersfeld, Germany on the border between East and West Germany in the cold war. My father was a member of this regiment and stationed in Bad Hershfeld, and did two tours with the 11th in Vietnam, among many other places.

"I feel privileged to go on this mission with such a magnificent group, I am honored to serve with these fine men, they will do the Regiment proud."

Major Ken Royalty commenting on the deployment to train the Afghan National Army.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm not going to give a number partly because it IS impossible to come up with any reliable one. What you kind of have to do is extrapolate from all the information you do know. Combined with a bit of common sense.

If a child is wounded in an air strike, in the dessert, in the middle of a war zone that Doctors without Borders etc. have abandoned due to safety issues - how long do you think they live? Especially with those huge, nasty spiders running around?

Obviously some people have opinions about this situation that are extreme. That the american military is 100% evil would be one of those extremes. Whatever. It's not something I hear or see very often, or I just don't give it much of my attention when I do. However, being concerned with the fact that innocent people are being killed does not equate, in my mind, to the US military being 100% evil. It is simply that; something to be concerned about. Something we definitely should not ignore or gloss over or just pretend isn't happening. Bickering about the actual number is no different in my mind than exaggerating it, it's just the other extreme. Like if only 14,000 innocent people have been killed then the US mil is 100% righteous?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jinx

Ok... but.. then what? We should just not worry about it? Go back to watching Oprah and Survivor and forget about that whole 'war' thing we got going on? Because we don't know the actual number of deaths we're off the hook?

No, it means filter your information, remembering where it comes from. There are so many biased sources that it is nearly impossible to form and informed opinion.

A good stance might be that the whole idea is bad/good regardless of the numbers and that it should be wrapped up in the shortest period of time and with the least loss of life.

Sometimes there just isn't enough information to base an opinion on. In that case simply reserve judgement.

[Undertoad]

If all one is prepared to do about the war is to spread baseless anti-US information from tinfoil-hat and echo-chamber websites, Oprah is a better choice.

[Happy Monkey]

Get your tinfoil right here.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The highest figure would have been 194000.

I don't believe it. They're just saying that to make us feel good.

[Brown Thrasher]

I think it was on cnn, where the average death rate among americans every year; from the flu was around 30,000. I wonder how many will perish this year, due to the lack of vacine. Speaking of innocent casualties, does anyone remember how many innocent american soilders were killed in vietnam. Anyway, whomever is making these counts of supposed innocents; what do they base this on. Who is actually innocent? the kurd, sunnis, shites, or the people who have gone to try and help these people...ie soilders,
organizatios such as the red cross and other humatarian organizations, who have been tortured and at times beheaded. I wonder how many will die here this year frm the flu.
Come to think of it how many of the innocents of Iraq will face the same fate.

Please enlighten me. Who is innocent in a time of war.p.s Thank God for my american brothers who fight for my freedom;even though I am far from innocent......... "Judgement is what defeats us" Marlon Brando- Acopolypse Now

[jaguar]

Brown Thrasher - total toll in Vietnam is impossible to work out but estimated between 3 and 4 million with around half a million being north vietnamese soldiers and 250k or so being south vietnamese fighters. This doesn't include conflicts in Cambodia and Laos. US toll was around 50k, innocent my ass.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Brown Thrasher

Who is innocent in a time of war.

The only true innocents in war are the unborn and sometimes young children. You can be sure not one of the soldiers/fighters on either side are innocent, especially if they joined their ranks voluntarily.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Cyber Wolf

The only true innocents in war are the unborn and sometimes young children. You can be sure not one of the soldiers/fighters on either side are innocent, especially if they joined their ranks voluntarily.

Sir, you must know much more than I do about innocense. However, I feel whether drafted or enlisting voluntarily to protect ones freedom is a form of innocense. I believe when someone is born and then brainwashed into certain norms of their particular culture they believe what they are taught whether right or wrong. I'm really curious who actually is right when it comes to war.
I'm glad it's not my decision to make. When you say unborn, I don't know whether you mean a child in a woman's womb during war or an unborn child that never actually experiences the horror. I have a hard time thinking which is worse. I really don't know why I'm continuing this discussion because I've already admitted; I am far from innocent of many things. I think the grey area in life will soon or later engulf us. Until that happen people will die in the name of war innocent or not as they have for centuries.

[xoxoxoBruce]

"Judgement is what defeats us" Marlon Brando- Acopolypse Now

It's mind over matter. Regardless of what is said about you or your actions, if you don't mind, it don't matter.