Illegal Immigrants Are Killing Us

[Elspode]

If we had to rely on non-Hispanic workers here (of course, they are *all* legal, according to their ID's, which I am not required to be an expert about...their SS #'s are good, anyway), we'd be out of business. As far as I can tell, there aren't 50 qualified white guys in the entire city who even want the jobs we offer (insulation, gutter and fireplace installation).

[mrnoodle]

Put your knee back in joint. Our grandparents were legal immigrants. Legal.

Legal.

They did not break the law and expect everyone else to congratulate them for it. I have no doubt that, like any other group of people, illegal immigrants comprise both good and bad folks. I'm sure they just want to make a living. I've worked alongside them in factories, warehouses, and fields. Half of my friends are of Mexican descent, several are from Mexico, and I can't count the number of people from that country I've hung out with over the years.

Oh by the way....a great number of them are pissed off that their countrymen are bringing heat down on the heads of honest, law-abiding immigrants. But if you think that any substantial number of illegals are paying taxes (or anything else), you're high. "It's estimated" is a garbage phrase. There is no way to estimate anything about them -- it's pure guesswork, because no one knows how many of them are here.

It's estimated that 100% of the illegals I worked with in a motorcycle helmet factory several years ago were paid in cash, and it was barely enough to get drunk on. You want burden? One of them broke his leg (actually it was nearly torn off) in a garbage compactor, and after he went to the emergency room, immigration got wind of the situation and cleared almost the whole factory out. Who knows what his bill was for the leg? Who knows what the cost of running his 50-odd coworkers through the system was? Who cares, anyway. We better cough it up, or else we're racist and xenophobic.

Yes, we should have compassion. That's why I said we should make it easier to get in legally. I think there should be some leeway for people who have been here a long time and have proven themselves to be productive members of our society. But fuck this noise about "if you don't like illegals pouring over the borders in record numbers, you're against Mexicans." It's a lie.

[Radar]

The legal/illegal distinction holds no water. When our grandparents came here, all they had to do to be legal was show up. Immigrants from Mexico should be able to do the same thing.

And nobody has addressed the fact that the federal government is given no authority over immigration by the U.S. Constitution. It is given authority over "naturalization", but not immigration.

There should be no limits on the number or country of origin of immigrants. If we get rid of handouts, we can be sure they're coming for opportunity, not welfare. Mexican immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes (a crime has not been committed unless the rights, property, or person of a non-consenting other are violated....this means using drugs, prostitution, suicide, walking across the border, etc. are NOT crimes) than the people born here.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

The answer isn't to close off our borders. The answer is to remove each and every single unconstitutional social program like medicare, social security, welfare, public schools, etc. so there is no incentive for people to come here seeking handouts. Only to seek opportunity so they'd be contributing and not leeching.

That's a novel approach! If it wasn't as nice to be here, maybe they wouldn't want to come.

Maybe the Eutopean side of my family were legal immigrants, but they were hardly desirable. I come from Appalachian stock who arrived as indentured servants and Irish, Scots and Welsh trouble makers who were offered transportation out of the British Isles in lieu of prison. Back where I was born, one branch of the family was STILL considered no accounts who made their living distilling white lightening in the woods. One of my grandmother's was Cherokee - this was considered a disgrace in the South at the time.

As far as I'm concerned I have absolutely no right to talk about my law abiding ancestors versus the lawless Mexican wetback looking for work to support himself and his family.

I'm glad the rest of you are such blue bloods. Thanks to one of my criminal ancestors I qualify for membership in the DAR. BFD!

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

That's a novel approach! If it wasn't as nice to be here, maybe they wouldn't want to come.

It would still be a nice place if charity were voluntary. In fact it would be nicer than it is now, because we'd have more of what we earn and be able to open new businesses, send our kids to better schools, give more to those in need, etc.

[mrnoodle]

Why must everyone couch this argument in useless blather about class warfare? It's not about their Mexicanness, it's not about their sorry state of affairs at home. It's not about whether or not they have good intentions. It's about an already suffocated welfare system, border-state hospitals in financial crisis, and a border that serves as a flashing neon welcome mat to terrorists, terrorist weapons, drug runners, and slave traders.

We're supposed to be all-compassionate, all-giving, ever-welcoming and supportive, but require nothing of those we're so damn nice to. It is not too much to ask to require that if you live and work in this country, you get your name on the books. You on the left who are so enamored of the liberal, refined ways of the United Nations: pick a UN country whose immigration policy you'd like to adopt in this situation.

I could be wrong, but I'm betting you don't find one that says "Sure, come as you are, we don't need to see your credentials. Have fun, enjoy your stay."

edit:
FWIW, marichiko, i was looking at my family's history in the Civil War while I was in NC. They were mostly privates in the Confederacy, and about half were deserters. I know from white trash. And the ratio of useless white person to working Mexican is 32:1 in southern Colorado. What's your point? No restrictions for anyone, unless they're white? I'm only half kidding...that's what most rhetoric from the other side sounds like to me.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

"It's estimated" is a garbage phrase. There is no way to estimate anything about them -- it's pure guesswork, because no one knows how many of them are here.

Alright, if that's the case, what are we so worried about? No one knows how many of them are here. How can we possibly know how much they're bleeding us dry for?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Oh by the way....a great number of them are pissed off that their countrymen are bringing heat down on the heads of honest, law-abiding immigrants.

Sure, Latinos talk crap about "wetbacks"--it's nothing new. Some of the same folks who complain had a parent or grandparent who came over illegally. Hypocrisy exists everywhere.

[lookout123]

You see, the main issue with illegal aliens is that...well, there illegal. They are breaking the law, they are here illegallly.

forget it hobbs, they don't have illegals traipsing through their backyards so this is purely intellectual for them. now if they move down here, they might be more interested in seeing the reality of it. if i think about it i will take some pics of Bell road some morning and post it. then everyone can see the illegals standing around waiting for someone to come and illegally hire their illegal asses.

Well this has totally buggered up my holiday plans. It was going to be a choice between Mexico and New Orleans.

go to mexico. it is a wonderful vacation spot (many parts), and you will be putting money into their economy, maybe getting some to stay home.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

edit:
FWIW, marichiko, i was looking at my family's history in the Civil War while I was in NC. They were mostly privates in the Confederacy, and about half were deserters. I know from white trash. And the ratio of useless white person to working Mexican is 32:1 in southern Colorado. What's your point? No restrictions for anyone, unless they're white? I'm only half kidding...that's what most rhetoric from the other side sounds like to me.

FWIW back at you, my family didn't even fight in the civil war. I could not be a member of the Confedrate Daughters of America or whatever they're called. A lot of southerners deserted the ranks to go home and plow their spring crops. A lot deserted because they were worried about their families. The hardships the Civil War imposed on the South were far higher than what it imposed on the North. I once asked my Dad why our family didn't fight in the War between the States, and he looked very surprised. "We were poor people. We weren't interested in keeping slaves, and the fighting never really came near our farms, so we didn't have to worry about defending our homes." Pragmatists, they were. But this is off topic.

I made the comment I did because some folks were getting all huffy about how THEIR ancestors came here legally like this somehow made them better than more recent immigrants. 100 years ago, the US was begging for immigrants. It was no big deal to come here legally. 300 years ago Britain used the southern colonies as a dumping ground for undesirables back in the British Isles. In MY case, I was just pointing out that the fact that my ancestors coming here legally in chains did not make them better than the folks who now come here illegally to work and are forced to LEAVE in chains.

The statement I made to Wolf still stands. I do not see how we can place the full blame on the Mexican illegal worker when it is the American farmers, ranchers and businessmen who hire them under the table, knowing full well that they are illegals. You can't place the sole responsibility on the Mexican workers.

WE are a finite country, and we must accept this fact. There are only so many jobs here to go around. We would be committing suicide as a nation to just throw our southern border open to all who wanted to cross it. Mexican workers do fill a certain need in the labor market, however. They will work harder and for lower wages and benefits than most American workers are willing to work for.

We can put up a 20 foot concrete wall that runs continuously from San Diego to El Paso and gun down all illegals on sight. We will then pay a higher price for any number of agricultural products, services, etc. We can re-instate something like the old Bracero program where Mexican workers come in legally for short periods of time to do the work they do for bargain prices and then go home. We can crack down HARD on employers who use illegals. It is these employers, as much as anyone else, who are forcing the American tax payer to cover schooling, etc, for the illegals. The Mexican people want to work. That's all. We can't let all of them in, but we could stop looking at just one aspect of the problem and look to the bigger picture for solutions.

As far as the hispanic population of Southern Colorado, do you know what you're talking about?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

There is a special tax ID number with which illegal immigrants can use to pay wage tax and Social Security. It's estimated that they pay in BILLIONS, and they usually do not end up collecting Social Security.

[dripping]I'm sure that they are applying for these "special tax ID numbers" in droves. [/sarcasm]

[Dagney]

[quote=bluecuracao]Alright, if that's the case, what are we so worried about? No one knows how many of them are here. How can we possibly know how much they're bleeding us dry for?


Because although we do not know _exactly_ how many are here, we do have a count of the ones that we _do_ know are here. You take that number, do some magical mathmatic extrapoloation, and voila` a calculation of how many of our tax dollars are going to support people who don't belong here.

The industry I work in tracks information on each of the number of children that born daily. The government collects statistical information from that data and can calculate where the larger communities of undocumented aliens are located.

The public welfare systems are taxed by the mere presence of these interlopers. Hospitals that recieve public funds by law are not allowed to turn anyone away. (I'm verifying that this is the truth, not just how I remember it during my time working for DPW in PA) That fact alone causes a massive outpouring of funds to treat people who contribute little or nothing to the system.

So yes, there are some fairly sizeable things to worry about.

[Brett's Honey]

The social programs have gotten out of hand.
Lately it seems the majority of my paycheck goes to feeding my family. Not just food, of course there's all of the non-edible things I have to buy weekly also. I recently gave a neighbor a ride to the grocery store so she could get $560.00 worth of food, soap, and paper products for herself and her seven kids - at no cost to her! She has a handy little plastic "Oklahoma Access card". The gov't did away with commodities and food stamps so people wouldn't feel bad being seen using them and gave them credit card looking things that also have cash available on them every month. This girl has never worked a day in her life, moves a man in ever so often, reports "father unknown" on her babies, and sits back and collects. The state even bought her a van a while back so she could go to a Vo-Tech school, which of course she never did. She eventually sold it. Will this crap ever end?
I've seen very young girls on talk shows screaming at the audience that they "have the right to stay home and raise their babies". I don't know if they even have a clue who is paying them to do this, but I don't think they really care.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I made the comment I did because some folks were getting all huffy about how THEIR ancestors came here legally like this somehow made them better than more recent immigrants. 100 years ago, the US was begging for immigrants. It was no big deal to come here legally. 300 years ago Britain used the southern colonies as a dumping ground for undesirables back in the British Isles. In MY case, I was just pointing out that the fact that my ancestors coming here legally in chains did not make them better than the folks who now come here illegally to work and are forced to LEAVE in chains.

The ancestors who came legally are no "better" than the new immigrants who come legally. However, both of those groups are entitled to more than the illegal immigrants of both generations. We owe our citizens lifelibertyandthepursuitofhappiness, but we don't owe anyone else's citizens dick. That said, there is an argument to be made that we should worry about our neighbors before we worry about Africa. But just managing to walk across a fence and swim a river does not make you a citizen.

Incidentally, the dictionary definition of "immigrant" is "a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence", not "anyone who wants to get a seasonal job in one country and take the money home to another country, while taking advantage of the services and welfare systems of the first."

The statement I made to Wolf still stands. I do not see how we can place the full blame on the Mexican illegal worker when it is the American farmers, ranchers and businessmen who hire them under the table, knowing full well that they are illegals. You can't place the sole responsibility on the Mexican workers.

Very true. The American side of the equation must be dealt with, as well. But I'm curious....what would you say if you heard that the vast number of illegals coming across the border every year was being denied work and turned back at every doorstep they came to? I suspect that we would be considered evil and heartless, and the left would demand that "something be done," probably in the form of more tax money going to handouts.

WE are a finite country, and we must accept this fact. There are only so many jobs here to go around. We would be committing suicide as a nation to just throw our southern border open to all who wanted to cross it.

Right. So what are you arguing about?

Mexican workers do fill a certain need in the labor market, however. They will work harder and for lower wages and benefits than most American workers are willing to work for.

The only way for this to occur is for American ranchers, etc., to hire them illegally. If they are here legally, they must be paid minimum wage. They could also unionize. The left is guilty of racism on this issue. Not the "hang all [race]" racism, but "you're [race], so you're obviously not equipped to follow the same rules as the rest of us. Because of your race, we'll give you a pass." Patronizing and wrong.

We can put up a 20 foot concrete wall that runs continuously from San Diego to El Paso and gun down all illegals on sight. We will then pay a higher price for any number of agricultural products, services, etc. We can re-instate something like the old Bracero program where Mexican workers come in legally for short periods of time to do the work they do for bargain prices and then go home. We can crack down HARD on employers who use illegals. It is these employers, as much as anyone else, who are forcing the American tax payer to cover schooling, etc, for the illegals. The Mexican people want to work. That's all. We can't let all of them in, but we could stop looking at just one aspect of the problem and look to the bigger picture for solutions.

So where would you personally draw the line? We can't let "all" of them in, so which ones should we allow? Which should we turn back? What is the point of cracking down on employers if you're not going to stem the supply of cheap, illegal labor? Maybe Nancy Reagan could come and tell them to Just Say No?

As far as the hispanic population of Southern Colorado, do you know what you're talking about?

Intimately. At any rate, I was agreeing with you. You shouldn't argue when people are agreeing with you. I was saying that there are 32 decent hardworking Mexicans per useless militia-member white nut.

But I fell into the race trap, at any rate. My bad -- this isn't about race, as much as the left wishes it were.

Ooh. I have to call my Hispanic lawyer and make sure he got the whole $1700 for my DUI case. It almost broke me to pay him, but I'm sure his bambinos will appreciate the extra tortillas, particularly since he's in the Bahamas this week and can't support the family.

[NICOTINEGUN]

Originally Posted by Radar

Nicotinegun is clearly a jingoistic, nationalistic, moron who is woefully lacking in education; in particular history.

America was built by immigrants. Unless he's 100% American Indian, the only difference between his family and illegal Mexican immigrants is the accent with which they speak. When European immigrants came to America, all they had to do was show up and they'd be welcomed.

Now we've got a bunch of idiots trying to close the borders, and trying to make it tougher and tougher for someone to come here to work to build a better life for their families.

America has always welcomed immigrants with open arms and always should. It keeps labor and goods reasonably priced. It keeps competition high. And it makes sure the best and brightest from all over the world come here to put America on top.

A Mexican coming here is just as American as anyone born here, if not moreso. He CHOSE to come here, and did something about it. He isn't American by accident of birth. He worked hard to make it happen. The best Mexicans in the world are in America. The best Europeans in the world are in America. The best black people in the world are in America. We've got the strongest, fastest, and smartest people on earth because we welcome everyone.

Only a fool with no understanding of freedom would be against allowing an unlimited number of immigrants to come to America. But then again, only a fool with no concept of freedom would take part in the war in Iraq. In fact only a traitor who has violated his oath would follow the wholly unlawful order to invade Iraq. Only a coward who was afraid to go to the brig would comply.

The answer isn't to close off our borders. The answer is to remove each and every single unconstitutional social program like medicare, social security, welfare, public schools, etc. so there is no incentive for people to come here seeking handouts. Only to seek opportunity so they'd be contributing and not leeching.

Radar, I am willing to make a significant wager I, not only have more education than you, but also a better quality education than you do. While earning my education at my universities, I was always given the impression that the more education one earns, the less one would have to call others names. How's the online GED coming along, Sport?