Senators Clash With Nominee About Torture

[deadbeater]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The new definition is returning to civil society and rule of law by Iraqis, in order to keep most of the country out of the hands of Al Qaeda.

How about...propping up the Iraqis so that they wouldn't even be threatened by the likes of al-Qaeda, somewhat like Saddam used to do.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The new definition is returning to civil society and rule of law by Iraqis, in order to keep most of the country out of the hands of Al Qaeda.

piercehawkeye45 has asked for the strategic objective. Keeping a country out of Al Qaeda's control is not a strategic objective just as 'search and destroy' and body counts were not strategic objectives.

Whereas creating a stable Iraq might be a strategic objective, details for that definition are required. That was an earliest point made even by Petraeus. We cannot win this war because we cannot accomplish the strategic objective. Or as one Captain so bluntly put it maybe one year ago: he could not win this war; he could only win battles.

That is the lesson from Nam. Americans won most every battle - and lost the war. American provided peace and safety in all major cities; and lost the war.

Also noted repeatedly was no phase four planning. What happens in the first six months following cessation of violence determines victory or defeat. Why? Again, what is the strategic objective - which is why phase four planning was so critical? What was in the second wave on D-Day? People to execute phase four planning.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What is winning the war in Iraq?

What is our strategic objective? Allies in WWII summarized that objective in a soundbyte called "unconditional surrender". What is that strategic objective in Iraq?

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I seriously haven't heard a good definition.

One need only review Nam where major tactical victories resulted in a lost war. Or in Israel's two largest invasions of Lebanon (especially the last one) where major tactical victories resulted in no strategic victory. Israel did not even get back the kidnapped soldier. So what was their strategic objective? Why did bombing cities even in the most northern parts of Lebanon contribute to a strategic objective?

What is the strategic objective in Iraq? What details define a victory? Why has America entered "Mission Accomplished" without even first defining a strategic objective? Without a strategic objective, then victory cannot be achieved. It’s basic military doctrine. Achieving security in the cities? America did that in Nam where no strategic objective also existed. In Nam, a corrupt puppet government also was being protected. Sound familiar?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

Keeping a country out of Al Qaeda's control is not a strategic objective

What about it is not strategic, and what about it is not an objective.

Also noted repeatedly

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

What about it is not strategic, and what about it is not an objective.

No different than winning in Nam by simply wiping out the VC. That was not and is not a strategic objective. It is not a viable tactical objective either. Control is not wrestled from anyone. The mythical international conspiracy labeled Al Qaeda is not something to be defeated - is not even the problem. In Iraq, the enemy of Iraqis are Iraqis and the people who created this mess - Americans. Iraq is a civil war.

Even a tactical objective cannot be achieved since neither the objective nor enemy is properly defined. Iraq has a complex civil war created by American who remain almost as much in denial as in 2003. At best, America can only provide Iraqis time to settle their own conflicts. Even that Captain understood this problem. Unhelpful are Americans who invent Moriarity hiding behind every corner.

Completely undefined is a strategic objective as demonstrated by Americans who still don't understand what Iraq is - a civil war. George Jr will not say that. George Jr needs Moriarity for political purposes.

Never forgot what George Jr's campaign machine must do - make sure "Mission Accomplished" is not lost under their watch. Invent boogeymen if necessary to confuse the issue - protect a political agenda. And so there is no strategic objective.

[Undertoad]

You're about six months behind.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You're about six months behind.

You mean George Jr finally admitted the world wide terror organization called Al Qaeda really does not exist? Are we now fighting SPECTRE? I thought James Bond wiped them out?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

You mean George Jr finally admitted the world wide terror organization called Al Qaeda really does not exist?

No but Bill Cliton certainly pretended like they did not exist for about 8 years.

[Undertoad]

Six months behind, tw. The fighters in Iraq say they're al Qaeda. bin Laden says the fighters in Iraq are al Qaeda. The victims of their violent "rule" in Iraq say they're al Qaeda -- and want them out.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Six months behind, tw. The fighters in Iraq say they're al Qaeda. bin Laden says the fighters in Iraq are al Qaeda. The victims of their violent "rule" in Iraq say they're al Qaeda -- and want them out.

If I label my hamburgers as MacDonald’s, then what I am selling will also be more desired. Trademark infringement.

Actually the word being used is 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' so as to separate a Muslim Brotherhood movement from something completely different called Al Qaeda. There is no Al Qaeda in Iraq. There are Muslim fundamentalists. Oh. And they amount to almost none of the combatants - estimated at numbers between 300 and 1000. So near zero as to be considered zero – except where George Jr (Cheney) hypes lies and fears.

Iraq is in civil war among many groups with political interests. Al Qaeda has almost nothing to do with so many parties vying for control of the country. Those groups will never go away. All are waiting for 'their time'. Most agree with on only one thing - they don't want Americans except when Americans are in their town protecting their town from other political militias.

Al Qaeda is the expression to hype a mythical enemy. If we don't stop them there, then they will come here. Only problem with that reasoning - they are not the big bad mythical Al Qaeda that George Jr uses to promote ravenous 'mouth dripping' support from Urbane Guerrilla.

[TheMercenary]

Sorry bro, The Muslim Brotherhood is something completely different.

The Iraqis want the Americans to protect them from other Iraqi's and the National Police force.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The Iraqis want the Americans to protect them from other Iraqi's and the National Police force.

The Muslim Brotherhood you are defining is completely different from the Muslim Brotherhood that includes everything from bin Laden's Al Qaeda to Islamic fundamentalists in Chechnya.

Iraqis want Americans when Americans are in town and providing security. But Iraqis want Americans out of Iraq completely when not in their town. Just another example of reality. A concept too complex for those who only know everything from their party's soundbyte propaganda.

So what is Al Qaeda? A domestic definition has little in common with what is described in Iraq. And so we have this new expression "Al Qaeda in Iraq". The two expressions have about as much in common as Hasidic Jews and Fundamentalist Christians.

One reason why America cannot conquer Iraq is an administration that even lies about who the enemy really is. Notice how many brainwashed Americans still remain in denial. Iraq is a civil war. A war created by wacko extremist American stupidity (as this poster has been accurately noting for four years now - see the many contentious discussions between tw and MaggieL). A war that is not solvable by America (as defined by an America who mislabels all adversaries as Al Qaeda and cannot even define a strategic objective).

But then how anti-American are these George Jr supporters? They will not even answer the most basic question that any patriotic American would ask: when do we go after bin Laden?

Same people must confuse a civil war - an insurgency - with a mythical 'Moriarity' called Al Qaeda.

[TheMercenary]

You have to keep thing simple for most Americans. 80% most likely could not find Iraq on a map of the Middle East. The Muslim Brotherhood is an old age organization of Egypt. It was the spark for many radical movements in the Middle East including Hamas.

"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."—Muslim Brotherhood

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hasan al-Banna, a 22-year-old elementary school teacher. The Brotherhood asserted itself as an Islamic revivalist movement following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the caliphate system of government that had united Muslims for hundreds of years. Al-Banna emphasized the comprehensive nature of his faith. Islam was not only a religion, but a fundamental force in society and politics.

The Brotherhood grew as a popular movement over the years. It blamed the Egyptian government for being passive against "Zionists" and joined the Palestinian side in the war against Israel (1948). The Muslim Brothers also performed terrorist acts inside of Egypt, which led to a ban on the movement by the Egyptian government. A Muslim Brother assassinated the Prime Minister of Egypt, Mahmud Fahmi Nokrashi, on December 28, 1948. Al-Banna himself was killed by government agents in Cairo in February, 1949.

In 1954, Abdul Munim Abdul Rauf, a Brotherhood activist, attempted to assassinate the widely popular Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser and was executed, along with five other Brothers. Four thousand Brothers were also arrested, and thousands more fled to Syria, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, and Lebanon.

Although officially banned by the Egyptian government since 1954, the Muslim Brothers have captured 17 seats in the Egyptian Parliament running as independents in recent years, in addition to holding important offices in professional organizations (syndicates) in Egypt.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The Muslim Brotherhood is an old age organization of Egypt. It was the spark for many radical movements in the Middle East including Hamas.

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is similar to what the IRA was in Northern Ireland. Both have political wings. The IRA morphed into its political arm. Muslim brotherhood in Egypt is (for all practical purposes) an illegal political party and a sometimes violent revolutionary movement.

Although related, other movements also called Muslim Brotherhood threatened Saddam, Assad of Syria, and Hussein of Jordan. Assad has a simple way of (probably) saving his secular government from that Muslim Brotherhood. Assad is alleged to have surrounded Muslim Brotherhood towns and massacred 10,000 people - everyone including women and children.

Hamas (not to be confused with Hezbollah), bin Laden's Al Qaeda and another complete different entity called “Al Qaeda in Iraq” are more versions of a larger fundamentalist movement by the same name - called Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas, for example is completely different. Hamas has a fundamental rule to not harm Americans.

Welcome to "Making of a Quagmire - 2003" where our own leaders will even intentionally confuse all into a common enemy for propaganda purposes. Two greatest enemies - Saddam and bin Laden - are accused by Goerge Jr of conspiring to create 11 September. Obviously not true. Poltical lies are more important than honestly identifying 'real' and 'mythical' enemies.

[Undertoad]

Remember Zarqawi? Read the section on alleged links to al Qaeda. Read Michael Yon's entries. Read Michael Totten's entries.

[queequeger]

Zarqawi was a major amir of AQI, yeah. He also had ties to the Osama bin Ladin network, along with just about every other sunni terrorist organization in the middle east. Zarqawi was about as connected to Osama bin Ladin as Muqtada al Sadr is to Ahmadenijad.

Tw is very much correct in stating that the AQI in Iraq simply uses the name and is about as connected as the PLO and Hizballah. They might work against a common enemy but they're by no means sisters. He's also right in that they've never been a very big threat in Iraq and are now dwindling into near extinction.