The best thing about Arnold's victory

[Radar]

Because YOU would never do such an evil thing as avoiding conscripted service?

I'm obviously against conscription, though I wouldn't avoid it. But George Bush is all for it. He doesn't mind sending other people to die, but when he's the one who has to fight, forget it.

1) He missed a physical and his commanders didn't know his whereabouts.

2) He was assigned to a base in Texas.

3) He applied for a transfer.

4) The transfer was turned down.

5) He stopped showing up in Texas and his commanders THINK he might have finished his service in Alabama even though there is no evidence to support it. This is known as AWOL - Absent without leave for a certain period and becomes desertion after 6 months.

6) Even if he did go to Alabama, he did so without a transfer and violated his orders, his assignment, etc. and was absent from the location he was assigned to which is still AWOL at the very least and technically becomes desertion (even if he's still on a military base) after 6 months.

There isn't one shred of evidence to suggest he finished his duty in Alabama but there is actual proof that his request for a transfer was denied.

George W. Bush is a corrupt, theiving, military deserter, a hypocrite, a coward, an idiot, a liar, a mass-murderer, an imperialistic tyrant, and a traitor who has violated his oath to god and the American people, and has endangered not only Americans, but the rest of the world through his irresponsible decisions and behavior. He is an enemy of America every bit as much as Osama Bin Laden although Bush is more dangerous to America than Bin Laden and Hussein combined.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
I'm obviously against conscription, though I wouldn't avoid it. But George Bush is all for it. He doesn't mind sending other people to die, but when he's the one who has to fight, forget it.

You must be confused in your terminology. Conscription means involuntary service, i.e. being drafted. No one who has died in this war was drafted. Every one of them volunteered for service.

You say you wouldn't avoid being drafted. So if the Bush administration instituted a draft tomorrow, and your name was called, you would show up? Oh, wait, you think this war is unconstitutional. So I guess your political stance against the war would probably excuse you from service, in your eyes.

As far as all your documented proof of Bush's desertion, none of it comes anywhere near proof that he did any such thing. Do you really think that if those papers meant what you're reading into them, none of the doves running for president would have made an issue of them?

No, they realize something you don't, or at least what you pretend you don't. These papers don't mean a thing. If anything, they show that record-keeping in the military is horrible at times.

I am supposed to receive an Officer Evaluation Report once a year, but that hasn't always happened. But I have never missed a drill. If someone years from now requested my OER, they would probably get the response "not rated during this period due to administrative reasons". That doesn't mean shit. It's a CYA response from some admin who didn't file his paperwork properly.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
There are other supporting documents like penalties for poor attendance, discharge papers, the days in which he was credited, etc. proving that he was indeed a military deserter.

The more of these documents I read, the funnier it gets!

I like the one labeled Document 23, Penalty for Bad Attendance. Taken out of context, one would assume it means Bush had bad attendance. I'm not sure whether you actually believe this, or know the truth but like to use its vagueness because it supports your agenda.

I have been counseled this date regarding the provisions of DOD Directive 1215.15, 23 February 1967. I understand that I may be ordered to active duty... for unsatisfactory participation as presently defined.... Further, I understand that if I am unable to satisfactorily participate in the ANG, and have unfulfilled military service obligation, that I may be discharged from the State ANG....

This doesn't mean his attendance was unsatisfactory, it means he was counseled on the possible consequences of poor attendance. You sign dozens of these papers when you sign up. It's so someone can't go AWOL, and then later on say "well I didn't know that wasn't allowed", because they have proof that you were indeed told.

So Radar, I'm curious.. how much military experience have you got under your belt? You seem to be pretty naive on what exactly all these papers mean, so of course you'll excuse anyone's hesitation at accepting your interpretation of them at face value.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
Even if he did go to Alabama, he did so without a transfer and violated his orders, his assignment, etc. and was absent from the location he was assigned to

The documents seem to indicate this chain of events: he applied for transfer to Alabama. The Alabama unit approved it, but AF HQ denied it for reasons I can't figure out (I think they're saying a National Guardsman can't be reassigned to a Reserve unit). So he requested a temporary transfer for three months to a different Alabama National Guard unit instead.

Again, none of this means a thing. People have stuff that comes up all the time, and making such exceptions is routine. The National Guard and Reserves try very hard to keep employers happy whenever possible, because they recognize the sacrifice employers make when reservists are called up. Your suggestion that it was "sugar-coated" because of "daddy's connections" is absurd.

[Radar]

You must be confused in your terminology

No, I'm not. And I never claimed those who volunteered to DEFEND AMERICA and are taking part in this unconstitutional war were drafted. They were sent to take part in a war by a lying weasel who wouldn't do it himself.

As far as all your documented proof of Bush's desertion, none of it comes anywhere near proof that he did any such thing

Wrong. It proves it perfectly.

So Radar, I'm curious.. how much military experience have you got under your belt?

I was in and out in only 2 years. They had a special program back in 1987 called "Sea College". You get in, get college money and get out with no time in the reserves. I hated every second of it. Nothing but a bunch of idiots. But I'm sure you must be a special case....cough

Your suggestion that it was "sugar-coated" because of "daddy's connections" is absurd.

Your suggestion that it was anything else is ludicrous. You can't be so stupid as to think Bush's father didn't have anything to do with him being assigned to a air national guard post while everyone else was being sent to die in a war we shouldn't have been involved in. Or can you? Hopefully you won't compound that ignorance by suggesting that even though all the paperwork points to the fact that Bush is a military deserter that it was just a clerical error. Please tell me you're not so I can sleep better tonight.

[xoxoxoBruce]

He'll be tossin' and turnin', tossin' and turnin'............

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
Wrong. It proves it perfectly.

Thanks for that well-thought-out and articulated reply. I notice you have managed to completely avoid commenting on any of the specific flaws I pointed out in those documents and what you're trying to prove with them.

So, for this military idiot, please spell out exactly how any of this proves that Bush was a deserter.

[Radar]

I've already pointed out how it proves beyond any doubt that Bush is a military deserter. Your argument amounts to "Nuh uh" by making laughable claims that it was a clerical error, or that he wasn't transfered but just showed up at another base even though there is no record of him at the other base.

I've shown that he applied for a transfer, was denied the transfer, and he stopped showing up and never came back. You claim he went to a base in Alabama because his commander said he thought it might have happened, with NOTHING to substantiate it.

So again, I've proven perfectly that Bush is a military deserter and you've proven NOTHING. You haven't pointed out a single flaw in my argument as you claim. You haven't proven that he showed up at another base. You haven't proven anything and all the evidence points to the fact that Bush is a military deserter.

[Whit]

      Hey Tob, I was wondering what you thought about George Sr. pulling strings to get him in the Guard and away from the draft?
      I admit, I don't have any links to the story, I kinda thought it was common knowledge. For all I know you don't believe that happened. I read about it in the paper in Dallas while Bush was running for Governor. As I recall, GW got moved from the 57th slot to the top of the list after Dads phone call. This means that someone else that earned the spot got bumped.
      Anyway, this bugs me, but I've never served in the military. As a guy that just got the sand out of his boots I was wondering what your opinion was on just that. Leaving out the desertion thing entirely, of course.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Whit
      Hey Tob, I was wondering what you thought about George Sr. pulling strings to get him in the Guard and away from the draft?
      I admit, I don't have any links to the story, I kinda thought it was common knowledge. For all I know you don't believe that happened. I read about it in the paper in Dallas while Bush was running for Governor. As I recall, GW got moved from the 57th slot to the top of the list after Dads phone call. This means that someone else that earned the spot got bumped.

To be honest, I have never looked into that aspect of it much. If someone has a link to some substantive information, I'd appreciate it.

If those allegations are true, then yes, I agree it was shirking his duty and using connections to get special treatment. It doesn't, however, reduce my faith in him as my current commander-in-chief.

Anyway, this bugs me, but I've never served in the military. As a guy that just got the sand out of his boots I was wondering what your opinion was on just that. Leaving out the desertion thing entirely, of course.

You must have me confused with someone else; my boots are still very much filled with sand! I'm just at a camp that has interent connections now.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
Your argument amounts to "Nuh uh" by making laughable claims that it was a clerical error, or that he wasn't transfered but just showed up at another base even though there is no record of him at the other base.

OK, one more time:

1. He requested transfer to an Alabama Air Reserve unit, 24 May 1972.

2. The Alabama Air Reserve unit accepted him, 26 May 1972.

3. However, Air Force HQ, upon learning of the request, informs him that it is not possible to transfer from Air National Guard to an Air Reserve unit, here (date unreadable)

4. So, on September 5, he requests temporary transfer to an Air National Guard unit instead.

So, unless you're hiding some documents from the Alabama National Guard unit showing that he didn't show up, you have nothing.

Since I can pretty much assume you're not going to post anything constructive in that regard, what about my reply to your implication that he was punished for poor attendance? Do you still think that happened, or do you admit you were misrepresenting the meaning of that letter, or do you plead ignorance as to the true meaning of the letter?

[Radar]

It doesn't, however, reduce my faith in him as my current commander-in-chief.

If you have any faith in George W. Bush as a commander-in-chief or even as a decent human being, you're an idiot.

And for the record, nobody in Iraq is defending America. Not one. In fact they are doing the opposite. They are putting America in danger, costing America billions of dollars, violating the sovereignty of another nation, violating their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, committing murder, and oppressing people who were starved to death, kept from medicine, and attacked by America for 12 years. Every single American and Iraqi person who has died in this war rests on GWB's head. He alone started this illegal war. You can tell that to anyone with sand in their boots and tell them I said it and I'll say it to their face.

So, unless you're hiding some documents from the Alabama National Guard unit showing that he didn't show up, you have nothing.

What part of "his transfer request was turned down" do you not understand? He did not have a valid transfer to Alabama even if they said they'd take him. I've seen no proof that he did show up in Alabama and you haven't presented any. It wouldn't matter if he did show up in Alabama, he was assigned to Texas and he didn't show up there. Even if he's on another base, it becomes desertion if he doesn't show up at his assigned base for 6 months.

If those allegations are true, then yes, I agree it was shirking his duty and using connections to get special treatment.

He is still shirking his duty to the American people. He's a traitor and should be executed as one.

As far as penalties for poor attendance, I could hardly read the document and posted based on its description. It doesn't detract from the fact that his transfer request was DENIED so it doesn't matter if he took up Alabama on their offer, he's still a deserter because he deserted his assigned post without permission.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Radar
What part of "his transfer request was turned down" do you not understand? He did not have a valid transfer to Alabama even if they said they'd take him.

Do you understand the difference between National Guard and Reserves? Do you understand the difference between a permanent transfer, and a temporary transfer (i.e. "split training")?

He requested two different transfers. Even the website you reference acknowledges this. The transfer to the Reserve unit was denied, but you don't have any information regarding his temporary duty with the other unit.

Split training is so common in reserve (lower-case "r", meaning Reserves or National Guard) units that it is often not documented. It simply shows up as a different job code on the pay stub. You are completely misinterpreting these documents because you have no administrative military experience whatsoever.

Please, call all the national newspapers with your proof; I'm sure they'd love to get some good dirt on the president. Call Howard Dean or Joe Lieberman or Wesley Clark. They would love to have your "proof". I know you don't agree with these guys either, but your loathing for Bush is obviously so deep-seated that I'm sure you'd love to see him smeared.

[Radar]

I don't need to contact the media, it's common knowledge. Yes, you're right, I have extremely limited military experience and maybe I'm wrong about the paperwork having not seen any since 1989. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong about the military desertion. Anything is possible. The site seems convincing to me though.

But even if he's not a military deserter. He used his father's political influence to avoid the war, and now he's sending other people to die in a war that he personally started with a country that poses no threat to America. He personally championed the single most unconstitutional piece of legislation in American history. He personally lied to the American people of his own accord to support this illegal use of the military even though the CIA told him specifically that Iraq was not involved in 9/11 and they posed no danger to America. There are still no WMD's and Americans are still dying because GWB sent them into someone else's sovereign nation.

America has no authority beyond our own borders. Neither the UN, nor America has any authority to tell any sovereign nation what weapons they may or may now possess. America is not the boss of the world or the police of the world. And the only valid use of the American military is to DEFEND against eminent attacks on American soil. Not for humanitarian aid missions, not to stabilize other countries, not to overthrow foreign "regimes" we don't like, and not to train the military of other nations. It's not even for defending our allies.

I have great reason to hate George W. Bush. He has earned it and richly deserves it. He is as anti-American as it gets. We would have been better off even wish a scumbag like Gore. Hell if Bin Laden himself were appointed to the office of the President by the Supreme Court like Bush was, even he couldn't be more anti-American than Bush.

Bush is against everything America stands for. We were created to escape from imperialistic tyranny and oppression, and now we're practicing it thanks to people like him. We had a country that kept religion and government apart, and thanks to people like Bush they're coming together.

I sincerely believe that Bush is a worse president than any random heroin addicted homeless guy.

I dunno, I think bin Laden might be worse as President with regard to freedoms.