WikiLeaks

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Why would you support people who obtained stolen classified material from our country?

The White House press corp does that every week. Its called news. Once it is released to the public domain, it is news.

Wikileaks and the White House press corp both suppress information that might cause damage to national security or harm human life. Why do you conventiently forget those who intentionally outted Valerie Plame only for a political agenda? That was far worse than what Wikileaks is doing. Why the double standard?

[Flint]

I'm not seeing this as cut and dried as Merc. One the one hand I have "my feelings" about it, and on the other: a black hole where something quantifiable should be, but isn't.

In the times we live in, the idea of monolithic news sources has evaporated. For the same reason that we don't buy sets of encyclopedias anymore--the monopoly on information has been cracked! WE ALL HAVE THE INFORMATION NOW. This is a condition that we regularly CELEBRATE, when we pause to consider how miraculous it is.

And now, what we have here is somebody taking information and, according to "my feelings" using it irresponsibly. I "feel" that one man has put himself forth as a kind of superpower, in a way that "feels" wrong--like the world shouldn't be that easy to throw off balance. I'm uncomfortable with an individual citizen having this much power--although if I were to "feel" differently about what he is doing, I would be CELEBRATING the power of the individual! . . . See the problem? This should be more quantifiable than whether we "feel" the individual is right or wrong, in his...motivations.

Is doing something for a bad reason enough to make it wrong to do, if, done for different reasons, it would have been okay?
Is doing something for a good reason enough to make it right to do, if, done for different reasons, it wouldn't have been okay?


It's a jumble of contradictory ideas that will not be so easy to sort out. Society will be FORCED to deal with this.

[Lamplighter]

Flint, nice discourse... is a puzzlement

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

Those who haven't truly looked are either well clouded by the media influence around the topic, or they're too afraid to look, as they face a demolishing of their core beliefs in their nation.

You realize that you are implying that Americans haven't truly looked until they agree with you, right? Many people have a hard time believing this but many Americans can think for themselves and there is no particular political label that generalize this group of Americans.

Also, if you think that wikileaks has exposed a demolishing of core values I am very curious of what you consider American core values.

[Aliantha]

Maybe Mr Assange is the anti-christ and this is the begining of the end of days!

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Also, if you think that wikileaks has exposed a demolishing of core values I am very curious of what you consider American core values.

I'm not even gonna respond to the first part of your post, its pretty low.

Re: the part i did quote, try freedom for one.
For an American to have a glimpse of freedom, he's gotta compare it to a third world countries.
America is full of bars, re: information, speech, expression, demonstration, even in race, religion.
Not comparing the USA to a third world country, what freedom is it exactly that Americans feel they have?
(I could insert hundreds of youtube clips to demonstrate the lack of freedom in the USA, but hopefully you've seen at least some of them to get my point)

Americans believe they have the freedom to chose who runs the country, and yet, regardless of which puppet takes over, its the same people/families/companies that call the shots.

Generally, Americans have this core belief that the USA is the good guy in their foreign affairs, when it is pretty clear that its quite the opposite.

An American, even today, maintains the belief that his/her country, is rich, when the numbers don't actually agree.

An American today, believes that his/her country has some kind of power hold in the world, when in fact, the nation's future can be described in realistic terms, as a pan-handler amongst the worlds nations.

These realities the USA now faces, were pointed out by America's own forefathers who saw this day coming, and warned future Americans of the results we now see unfolding.(Check George Washington, Thomas Jefferson)

Do not mistaken my comments as a generalization of Americans, rather the majority.
I'm well aware that there are several Americans who are aware of the facts, but hold no power to lift the people up to overturn the path, due to the fact that America has failed to up-hold the base of the second amendment..... the original purpose of the amendment has been lost into impossibility.
The foundations of the country were solid, and yet, they have not been held in tact.

Wikileaks has provided just the tip of the truth.
I advise to look beyond commentary on the subject, and focus on the hard evidence that's to come.

[skysidhe]

Please do not confuse freedom of speech with dissemination of information.

EVERY country as their procedure for dissemination. Would any country like another country to disseminate theirs?

Americans are not demoralized. The government may be embarrassed but not broken. What this government does in secret, you can bet other governments do too.

I suppose I am not understanding your angle. Should we crack open ALL government documents from every country? If it is good for us, it should be good for every country right?

Should someone hack your computer and put it all out there on the web? There is a certain sense of, this is MINE, not yours to just pass around. Don't YOU want to decide who you share information with?

I do.

[Stormieweather]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Why would you support people who obtained stolen classified material from our country? Assange is an accessory to a crime and should be treated as such. Wikileaks is not a news organization and should not be afforded any such protections. I am quite happy to see him in jail, regardless of whether or not wikileaks continues to release stolen classified information. And I would fully support the arrest and detention of any person or persons who pass on such information to the general public.

That would be...oh, almost all of the current, mainstream "news" organizations.

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

What this government does in secret, you can bet other governments do too.

You think that makes it ok? ...cause some other Governments do it?
Comparing shit to shit to make it look better, does not make it so.
Some people rape 3 year old girls, does that make it ok for us to do it?
Cause some other people are doing it?
What kind of logic is that.
If you truly look at the documents that have passed, and those that are on their way, you'll see that no other government has done quite the same.

Re: the rest of your post, i was responding to the following query

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I am very curious of what you consider American core values.

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

That would be...oh, almost all of the current, mainstream "news" organizations.

There appears to be this continuous mass illusion.
I don't think in this case, it's because brainwashing is so effective.
I think its because people want to eat what the media is feeding them.
If people turned off their tv and did not read the newspaper, and just looked at the hard facts, they would not even be considering these things.

[W.HI.P]

[Trilby]

this is what happened:

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

some of us get over it by living life and some of us do NOT get over it. I was bitter and angry and republican for a good while. Then I lived a bit. I saw the need for compasion. those who say work harder! have never been in need =- in true need, in need of human kindness.

Someday, though, they will be in need.

May goddess bless them.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

If people turned off their tv and did not read the newspaper, and just looked at the hard facts, they would not even be considering these things.

Hard, unless it was in braille.


What are the hard facts?

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

If people turned off their tv and did not read the newspaper,and didn't log into the cellar, they would not even be considering these things.

Fixed it for ya.

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

If you truly look at the documents that have passed, and those that are on their way, you'll see that no other government has done quite the same.

We don't know that. Intelligence and counter intelligence is how governments operate. Those are the facts.

I wish we could live in a Utopian world too, but history proves this will never be the case.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by W.HI.P

I'm not even gonna respond to the first part of your post, its pretty low.

It's pretty low but you just responded by telling us what, in your personal perspective, Americans think and then how you "know" better. Then on later posts you drop the term brainwashing, which is rarely used by someone with an unbiased opinion.

From what all I've gathered from wikileaks, no mainstream tv stations or newspapers btw, tells me that our foreign policy tactics have either not changed or even have gotten better (in an ethical sense) since the cold war.

If you have "hard facts" to show me otherwise, I am more than willing to see. Also, please don't show just one or two instances of something happening and then try to generalize all of US foreign policy from it...

[Flint]

Once you venture into political discussion on the internet, you quickly realize that you can't just toss out half-formed ideas the same way you can while getting drunk with your buddies, or any comparable sitiation in real life. Your buddies might not tell you when you're full of shit, but I guarantee that somebody on the internet will.

Listen to them.

This might be the most important, life-changing thing you ever encounter. It has the potential to revolutionize your entire thought process and transform you into a better, smarter version of yourself.



For starters, have the intellectual honesty to question the premise that you, of all people, have achieved complete omniscience, while every other person in the world is some stupid, brainwashed automaton. What is the statistical likelihood that a convergence of special genetic and environmental factors came together in just the right way to produce a super-human thinking machine, and that person is you, and you alone?