Drunks

[regular.joe]

Hi guys. Before I get started I want to emphatically say that I am not out to change any minds, or win anyone over. I'm just putting my views and experience into the discussion. I understand that my view is an extreme minority here in the Cellar. I have been mulling over this topic now since my last post here and for a long time thought I had said enough. I guess not.

I have been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous for just over 20 years now. I am definitely an alki. I would like to clarify a few things as I have come to see them.

The meetings and fellowship of AA are an outgrowth of the twelfth step of the program of AA. The program is not an outgrowth of the meetings. Meetings are not the AA program. Many people have this confused. The definition of an alcoholic is this: if, when you honestly want to you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking you have little control of the amount you drink you are prolly an alcoholic. If you have an alcohol problem, the solution is simple...quit drinking! and be done with it. The requirement for membership in AA is only a desire to quit drinking...many people come to AA and cannot or will not stomach the outlined program, we don't have the right to deny any one admittance to the fellowship just because they don't like the program. What you do with the program is between you and whom ever. Parking your ass in a meeting and participating in the discussion is not the AA program. I wish I could count how many people I've ever seen who have gone, and go to meetings to discuss and participate in talking therepy and complain that AA doesn't work....or doesn't work for them. Seriously? I sat in a stick shift car for two months and talked about my problems ....and now I don't know how to drive a stick! Well, yea. So, yep we won't deny anyone admittance to the fellowship, and AA deals with and discusses explicitly the idea of God. To not tell this to new comers is, in my opinion kind of like with holding the truth of what we are about. If anyone can not or will not stomach that idea then my best wishes to you, sincerely. We don't have a monopoly on anything, we do have a program that is working just fine for us who practice the program and offer this as a proven solution to those who can accept it.

I know that I am heavily opinionated, even within the AA fellowship. I don't air my opinion very often outside of that fellowship. I truly believe we have a program of attraction and not promotion. I am joining in the discussion here for several reasons the first and formost is that I am a member of this small community that we call the Cellar. It used to burn my nads to no end when people would come to meetings, outright refuse to embrace the outlined program, and just sit in meetings and talk. And then complain that AA doesn't work. I now know that people who come to our meetings must be looking for something. So what if 70-80% if not more of the population of AA is not really practicing the AA program, most of what a new guy/gal sees is a bunch of people sitting around drinking coffee trying to figure out how to talk each other into not drinking, and passing on some pop psychology some of them learned in a treatment facility. I will say that a small percentage of us are really doing what is outlined in our text on a daily basis and it works great for us.

[infinite monkey]

A very close loved one has been with the program for almost 15 years now. This loved one was offered a high profile big giant job in another city and turned it down because one of the things this person didn't want to leave was the support network this person has made within AA.

I don't want to, in any way, point out who the person is, so that's why no pronouns.

I credit that program with this person still being in my life, in all our lives. This person is a wonderful, intelligent, hilarious, giving, caring person...always had a heart bigger than anything. This person has helped numerous other individuals on this road, and sadly has lost individuals who just couldn't get there.

So I don't knock AA. It might not work for everyone but I see how much it means to this person and I am more grateful than I can ever say.

Thanks Joe. That was a wonderful post.

[wolf]

Joe, thank you. I respect you openness.

As part of my former employment, I had to attend meetings from time to time, and was often embarrassed about it. Although it certainly could have gone in another direction, I'm one of the people who made their peace with alcohol, can have a drink or not, drink for flavor, not for effect. What could I say other than I'm here because I have to be here, but I'm here to support you ... I know the buzzwords, the steps, but have never been a the position of having to work the program (not your program, not my program, the program, as it's said).

I support AA because I have seen it work for people that you would never expect it to work for. Because it gives structure to people who resist structure. And because the concept of a higher power works with the individual being in the middle, between that and ones powerlessness over the addiction, somewhere in that game of pushmepullyou, a kind of homeostasis results for folks that can keep the balance, in sobriety.

Oh, shit. I've had too much coffee and I sound like JBKlyde.

[classicman]

Thanks for sharing, Joe.

And Wolf, I like the term "the program" as its not just for alcohol.

8 years here. I haven't been to a meeting in many years.
I got the concept and work it my way. So far so good.

[Aliantha]

This is probably one of the most interesting threads I've read on the cellar for a while.

I don't have much to add except thanks for the discussion and to say that I agree with what Zen said about Australian Aboriginal culture and booze. It's a big problem, but then, so is general teenage binge drinking also. I'm watching my boys head towards the age group most effected by this habit and I'm very frightened indeed. This is part of the reason my husband and I have both put the brakes on drinking around the kids much. Just so that they have a better example from us as they head into these very difficult years of their lives.

I have to say that I in particular have been a bad example on some occasions. More than I really want to admit, but I hope that the fact that both Dazza and I can just not drink if we decide to, or that when we go out in social situations we don't have to drink, sinks in. Mostly I just hope that the kids will always be open to discussion on the subject as they are now, and believe me, the problem is quite obvious among their peer group already.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by monster

My mom never felt it either. But the rest of us did.

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[SamIam]

I am a veteran of many, many meetings and Joe's description of AA and the AA program is excellent. I'm afraid I've always been the red haired step child around AA, because I do not believe in a personal God. For a long time I thought this was the only way I could get and stay sober, so I desperately tried to force myself into a belief. I tried for years. In the end, I gained a lot of spiritual knowledge and experienced some interesting events, but I cannot force myself into believing something which goes against who I am. Going to meetings helps me, though. I've been sober this time around for almost three years. The thought of picking up a drink has no appeal. As Joe said, the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. I'm a big fan of whatever works for each individual who wants to stop and does.

[classicman]

I'm a big fan of whatever works for each individual who wants to stop and does.

Agreed

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by classicman

Agreed

Doubly so!

[Sundae]

Joe, I don't mean to knock AA. I'm not talking trash about it.
I simply cannot commit to the 12 step programme due to my atheism. IS that stronger than my desire to quit? Well it seems so. I wouldn't ask someone with deeply held religious beliefs to give them up in the name of treatment; I know they would simply hold their beliefs in private and live a lie.

It seems to be universally the go-to place for anyone who is really committed to sobriety. And there are so many high profile advocates. So of course I feel frustrated that I am excluded from the outset. I don't blame AA, I'm just explaining why it's not a solution for me. And not even something I can work on.

This is not a position of superiority, just the musings of an outsider.

[regular.joe]

Aw heck, I know you ain't knocken AA, your just talking about your experience and what you can put up with, with your beliefs.

[classicman]

Either way, I think AA is a great start for someone who finally realizes they have a problem. Whether they stick with it or do something else, at least they realize they are not alone and that there are others in the same or a similar place.

[monster]

I sincerely doubt it. I'm not really familiar with the 12-step program, but when you are down and you know there is no god, it is not in the least bit helpful to have that rammed down your throat. It's like people see that as a bigger problem than your recent bereavement/alcoholism/whatever. But true atheists are probably a very small minority of society and I can see who those who are not cannot possibly understand that it is not something you can tolerate for the sake of getting "help".

I'm quite surprised there aren't AA groups who have taken the belief part out of it, though?

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm quite surprised there aren't AA groups who have taken the belief part out of it, though?

Wouldn't be AA. Would be like taking the flour out of the cake.

[regular.joe]

To be sure we are happy when people who cannot accept what the AA program is about find an answer somewhere else. Like I said we do not have nor do we want a monopoly on recovery from alcoholism. We just have a way out that works for us.

So there are groups that have taken the God and belief part out. They are no longer AA groups mostly because the AA programs aim is to have a spiritual awakening and on the outset we make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand God. We also believe there is no middle of the road solution within this framework. But, again if rational recovery is working for you and others we are very happy about this and wish to brook no controversy over how a particular individual gets and stays sober. I know that rational recovery, thought replacement therapy to name a few did not work for me while the AA program does. Tolerance of other views and beliefs are attitudes which make us more useful to others and this is really the gist of our lives today.

We never want to deny anyone membership in the AA fellowship based on being an atheist, we are not going to re-write the program on the same notion either. The door swings both ways for all of us. There are many programs and manners of living for atheists as well as others who do not like the AA program. If you are able to moderate or quit drinking using these methods our hats are off!