Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[Big Sarge]

Why doesn't the media comment about the Egyptian occupation of Gaza?

The influx of over 200,000 refugees into Gaza during the 1948 war resulted in a dramatic decrease in the standard of living. Because the Egyptian government restricted movement to and from the Gaza Strip, its inhabitants could not look elsewhere for gainful employment. In 1955, one observer (a member of the United Nations Secretariat) noted that "For all practical purposes it would be true to say that for the last six years in Gaza over 300,000 povertystricken people have been physically confined to an area the size of a large city park."

Baster, James, "Economic Problems in the Gaza Strip," Middle East Journal, Vol. 9, No. 3 (Summer, 1955), pp. 323–327.

It appears Egypt, not Israel, created the Palestinian dilemma. Egypt continues to block Palestinian access through it's border. Consider me biased. I will never bear arms against Israel.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.

Well, Sparky, I think it's sad that Netanyahu resorts to sick fear-mongering, however euphonious and poetic-sounding.

What do make of this quote:

President George W. Bush, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

Same kind of divisive, war-accelerating, jingoism. The purpose of such a statement is not to convey truth, but to justify past and future aggression.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.

Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.

I read that page too, before I posted in the first place. Here's a link to a clearer graph. It's the source material for the blog post you quoted.



But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one. The data I've seen show the ratio to be practically one to one.

Most of the casualties are in the middle of the age range, but there's plenty of spillover into either end. If the bombs and guns and missiles used by Israel are .......

Let me restart.

I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever. There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

V didn't answer so I'll try to form one. Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead. Each can only get a deal if they can prove they can kill the other at a level that is unacceptable. That's why the Arabs inside Palestine (for lack of a better label) will lose, they don't have the population or arms to hurt Israel enough to force a deal. The Arabs outside might but the Bush destabilization makes that an unreadable mess.

[Undertoad]

But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one.

You're right, I misinterpreted other data during a somewhat non-sober period last night. Sorry about that.

I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever.

Right, and also Hamas isn't careful what it hits. Israel's bombs are precision-guided. Hamas's are not. Hamas has launched 3000 missiles so far. Untrained combatants point in the direction of Israel and fire. A good percentage of those fall short or go off course and land in Gaza. I read 10% but I don't know where that number came from. Gazans die from these misfires. I don't know how many.

Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead.

The Arabs would definitely get their homeland if they put down their arms. Part of the reason Israel was created by the UN was that Jews were not exactly comfortable continuing to live in Europe. What they wanted was a place where they could live without the danger of annihilation. Once Israel was segmented off, Arab nations kicked out their Jews, since now there was a place they could go. A huge percentage of Jewish Israelis have a heritage only 2-3 generations old of seeking a place they could live in freedom without being racially hated and discriminated against and killed and such.

That is their expectation. And since the creation of Israel in 1948, we (meaning the rest of the civilized world) have a responsibility to make sure that happens. But somewhere down the road, Europe begged off its part of that responsibility.

It was actually at that point that the American dollars began to arrive. Once all of Arabia waged war on Israel and it was uncertain whether the Jews would survive, the US collectively said we better help out here.

And that was with all the support and involvement of the American left, to the point where the anticipated Democratic Presidential candidate (RFK) was assassinated in the first act of Arabic terrorism on US shores.

that's how I see it anyway, i could be wrong

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by BigV

... There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad. ...

But, but, it's a tradition BigV, handed down to us from your grandparents who supported the same kinds of activities in the past with their tax dollars. They also passed the practice on to the rest of the world. You still love them don't you? Your poo pooing the Israelis seems a little like the pot calling the kettle black: you must be the sensitive one in the family ...

NAPALM STICKS TO KIDS

We shoot the sick, the young, the lame
We do our best to kill and maim
Because the kills all count the same
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low and feeling mean
See that family by the stream
Drop some napalm, hear them scream
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low across the trees
Pilots doing what they please
Dropping frags on refugees
Napalm sticks to kids

See those farmers over there
Watch me get them with a pair
Blood and guts everywhere
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks in the open making hay
But I hear the gunships say
There'll be no Chieu Hois today
Napalm sticks to kids

I've seen it happen only twice
But both times it was mighty nice
Shooting peasants planting rice
Napalm sticks to kids

Drop some H.E. on a farm
It won't do any harm
Just blows away their legs and arms
Napalm sticks to kids

There's a gook on his knees
Launch some flechettes into the breeze
Arms and legs nailed to trees
Napalm sticks to kids

Truck in a sampan sits in the stern
They don't think their bont will burn
Those fucking gooks will never learn
Napalm sticks to kids

A squad of Cong in the grass
But the fighting's long since past
Crispy critters in the mass
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks down in a .50 pit
Baby sucking its mother's tits
Dow Chemical doesn't give a shit
Napalm sticks to kids

Shoot civilians where they sit
Take some pictures as you split
All your life you'll remember it
Napalm sticks to kids

Napalm, son, it's lots of fun
Dropped by bomb or shot from guns
It gets them all on the run
Napalm sticks to kids

They're in good shape, for the shape they're in
But here's no way that they can win
With napalm running down their chin
Napalm sticks to kids

[Undertoad]

Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead.

20% of Israel's population are Arabs. 0% of any Palestinian state will be Jews. This is why they want to stop the settlements. If the West Bank were to become a state today, those Jews would have to go, one way or the other. Because there is a fundamentally different mindset on each side here.

That is one reason why there is a tremendous difference in body counts. In Syria, the UN is saying there are 191,000 dead so far. In Gaza there are about 2,000. It's all very sickening and saddening - because we are western, we agree that every death is sickening and saddening. There's no need to say it.

But we want to minimize deaths. Israel believes that too. But as long as the Arab world believes what it believes, it will be hard to do that without any deaths at all.

I am so sorry that I just blather on and on. There is something wrong with me.

[sexobon]

Logorrhea.

Now you have a name for it!

[Big Sarge]

Gentleman - The civilian to combatant casualty ratio in Gaza seems to be one of the best on record. Check out the ratios for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam. You seem to forget that this is asymmetric warfare which always has higher ratios than a conventional war. The cry about the death of 109 children is nothing. Hell, I'm probably responsible for more than that when I ran a targeting cell. It is the nature of the game when they have human shields. Grow a set of stones and quit whining about the little stuff.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But we want to minimize deaths. Israel believes that too.

That assumption is not borne out by facts. Israelis, in general, probably want that. But Likud clearly has a 'kill then all' or 'send them back to where they come from' attitude. Same attitude was even observed in 1950/60 US Southern states.

For every 30 dead Palestiniians, only one Israeli dies. That is bad. Yesterday, big news was one Israeli child died. Where was the report that said four Palestinians children also died that same day? Peter Jenning was very blunt about this. We Americans do not get balanced reporting from both sides.

In this latest conflict, four Israeli children have been killed. In the meantime, about 500 Palestinian children have been killed. Why is that good? Racist?

Even the UN has cited Israel for bombing or shelling locations they were told repeatedly (in one case 17 times) as UN safe zones.

Unfortunately, too many want to paint all Israelis and Palestinians in the same color. Most in Gaza were not Hamas and were not supporters of Hamas. They regarded Hamas as occupiers. If Israel really wanted to end this conflict, then their strategy is to separate Hamas from the rest of Gaza residents.

But Likud is an extremist organization. To increase power to extremists, make it impossible for moderates to exist. And so Israel makes no distinction between Hamas and any other Palestinian. They routinely kill or maim any Palestinian since that increases support for extremists - makes peace all but impossible.

If you do not separate Likud from other Israelis, then you have played right into the propaganda of extremism.

Again, a Saudi foreign minister said how to eliminate the problem. Ignore Hamas. Negotiate with moderates and others who are the only hope of peace. That is obvious to anyone who really learned from history in general and history of this region in particular. But that means Likud may see another event similar to what happened in the Sinai.

Likud was very clear about this. Never again. Their extremist agenda is obvious. God gave them the West Bank. It is only time before Israel takes it all as god has decreed. That is extremist rhetoric. No way around that reality.

[Pamela]

TW, God did not give Israel the West Bank. They captured it from Jordan in 1967. After the Arab-Israeli War. Remember that? And ever since, attacks have been launched from there and other places against Israel. Infiltration tunnels have been dug.

Israel has tried many times to avoid civilian death. It is Hamas who hides behind and among civilians in order to cause civilian death and injury and thus garner worldwide condemnation against Israel. The UN is merely a tool used by Hamas to attack their sworn enemy. One of many.

Hamas hides rockets in UN schools making them legitimate Israeli targets. Therefore, such attacks are NOT a war crime.

The party committing war crimes here is Hamas, not Israel. Hamas deliberately targets Israeli civilians yet the international community remains silent and unseeing. How is THAT *not* a war crime?

You did get one thing right though. Americans are NOT getting to see honest, unbiased news coverage of the events there.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pamela

TW, God did not give Israel the West Bank.

You know that. I know that. But extremists - Likud - say something completely different. Extremist say this land was promised by god to the Jews. If you cannot recognize their extremist propaganda and do not openly criticize it, then you cannot see a solution to what will otherwise be wars forever.

Netanyahu is an expert at torpedoing every peace process. He plays along until he has some trivial excuse for undermining peace. For the same reason why Sharon intentionally restarted the Intafada. Like Sharon, Netanyahu needs violence and hate to keep the people (Palestinians and Jews) from becoming too moderate. Otherwise peace might happen. Then Israel cannot confiscate the West Bank - as god promised.

If not blaming Likud equally with Hamas, then you are not moderate and are in denial. Likud openly called for and assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because he attempted peace with Arab nations. Likud is still smarting from a peace treaty with Egypt and the resulting removal of their Sinai settlements. Likud has long been quite clear about this. Never again. Likud extremists called for and got the murder of Rabin. Anything that might undermine stealing of West Bank land must be evil. Anyone who can torpedo every peace process is a perfect extremist Likud leader.

If grasping reality rather than propaganda, then you know Hamas rockets cannot target anything. And so only 30 Israelis and 2000 Palestinians die. Unlike in Israel, Israel also destroyed most everything Palestinians need to survive including the power plant and desalination plants. And a seven year embargo on anything necessary to have a minimal standard of living. Meanwhile, Israel has lots of new holes in farmland and deserts. Extremist Jews need that embargo and targeted destruction to push moderate Palestinians into the ranks of wacko extremist Hamas. That empowers Likud and justified West Bank land theft.

I don't expect to see logical replies. You have demonstrated only Likud extremist rhetoric. Your posts define all Palestinians are evil and all Jews are good. That alone says you are incapable of thinking like a moderate. I never expect you to admit Likud is as evil as Hamas because Likud propaganda has you completely brainwashed.

You have a choice. And I did this intentionally. First, you will become emotional and angry as an extremist. Or second, you will see the conflict equally from both sides. That second option would have to be a miracle.

Israel could easily separate moderate Palestinians from extremists. But that would undermine Likud. A moderate could see that. But having challenged your emotions, I don’t expect you to respond as a moderate. I don’t expect you to see what could have undermined all this violence. That requires analysis as a moderate. Moderates see extremists on both sides as complicit to and encouraging of this violence. Extrtemists even deny moderates might exist.

[DanaC]

Netanyahu is an expert at torpedoing every peace process. He plays along until he has some trivial excuse for undermining peace

True that. Here he explains in 2001, whilst thinking he is not being filmed, how America is easy to twist and how he sabotaged the Oslo accords.

Go full screen and press for subtitles.

[sexobon]

The obvious solution is for all Palestinians to convert to Christianity so the West will support them and Israel will leave them alone.

That was easy, maybe next weekend I'll reunite North and South Korea.

[DanaC]

Nah: they'd have to change their ethnicity too. No way will the West ever fully empathise with Arabs.