Screwing the Cow

[Griff]

Somebody sent me this link recently. Its a searchable database for Federal agricultural subsidies. Its great, you can look by zip code and see which of your neighbors is stealing from you. You can't help but notice, however, that the biggest operations are the ones which are really getting the heavy subsidies. If anyone tries to tell you that subsidies are there to keep the small farms viable, they are full of crap.

http://www.ewg.org/farm/

[Hubris Boy]

I just wanna know two things:

What the hell is a "loan deficiency payment"? And... how can I get one?

[Undertoad]

My third biggest money-getter is the "Bureau of Correctional Industries". Say what?

My veterinarian - of all people - is 18th, getting $138. for "conservation". I'll have to ask her.

is that $138 or $138,000 and the formatting just got fudged?

Some dude/company in my ZIP code got like $200,000+ over the 4 year period. Wow.

[Undertoad]

It's $138; we're pretty suburban in my ZIP, except for a few lagging farms that are pretty much for public fun like Xmas tree farms and pumpkin picking lots.

[Griff]

There is a little good news on this front, the Senate voted to cap payments next year at $275,000. Of course the House could wreck the language of the bill... if in fact the Senate language is solid. I'll have to dig around some more. Check out the payments being made out West, by searching the states for their highest recipients. dhamsaics $200,000 local is chump change.

[warch]

What a coincidence. I was just checking this out last week with a co-worker (who was raised on a family farm) who is using this site with an economics class. To be fair, there are lots, LOTS of smaller, family operations in MN that received 5 and 6 figure assistance as well as the bigger operations. That's a lotta fertilizer.

[Whit]

     It wasn't anywhere near the top but Westark Ear Nose and Throat clinic was on the list. Westark was the local community college, it recently became the U of A Ft.Smith. The really weird part? Every other name I checked was paid out of a nearby office. This clinic was paid out of an office in Kansas. Go figure.

[tw]

This and other equivalent programs are instituted for specific international reasons. Whether the details are executed properly is another story. Primary target of agricultural subsidies is France. France refused to make agriculture a free market industry. French farms are socialistic. For example, French farms are too small and inefficient because of government intervention. French national integrity, for reasons I don't understand, are tied to the land and the small farm. French routinely stifle sales of American agriculture behind bureaucratic hypocrisy. Also the reasons for a recent world wide banana war.

Victims of American agricultural subsidies include Canada and Australia. America so drove down wheat prices as to make farmers in those countries suffer. But then it is a global economy, no matter what terrorists and demonstrators at world economic councils 'feel' (usually without even basic knowledge of economics).

The topic of subsidies becomes even more complex as Charlie Rose once demonstrated in repeated interviews with multiple farm owner/families. But to pass judgement on what this web site demonstrates is to take a myopic viewpoint. The website may demonstrate how socialist programs make a less productive, socialist economy. But it does not address the bigger, more serious problem that created so many such programs.

If you think this program is rediculous, then just wait till Bush and Company start protecting USX (formally US Steel) using reasoning that only a naive MBA could appreciate.

[jaguar]

Victims of American agricultural subsidies include Canada and Australia. America so drove down wheat prices as to make farmers in those countries suffer. But then it is a global economy, no matter what terrorists and demonstrators at world economic councils 'feel' (usually without even basic knowledge of economics).

They are not arguing that it is NOT a global economy, they are protesting against the unfairness of it *sighs*
I was at some of those protests, it has much more to do with things like American tariffs that protect the inefficient industries you are always complaining about from being bitchslapped by economic realities.

I mean the reasons are obvious, any government knows that it lives or dies on its economic management before anything else and the concept of half-killing industries (that often have powerful political lobbies, like the Japanese rice industry - a joke financially)in the process of making them economically viable is political suicide.

Australia has a policy of zero tariffs - the only industry we protect to the best of my knowledge is cars. If you take a look at our trade white paper (www.dfat.gov.au/ini/wp.html) (you know you do far too much international studies when you memorise things like that) it revolves around the concept of true free trade, not the selective bullshit America keeps pouting while using economic muscle to bully everyone into unfair agreements.

It’s good to see Europe is making some token efforts toward opening its markets to free trade wit the third world in fruits and vegetables, it’s a good start.

Want one reason so many people hate America? Its the unfairness of wealth, if these people weren’t in such desperate poverty they wouldn't become the 'terrorists' tw seems to be talking about. Why are they in such desperate poverty? Because half the things they can produce are made unviable by tariffs in first world countries to protect commercially unviable businesses

Grrrr why the HELL does word (set to ENGLISH english, keep trying to spell words with a Z.

The problem, however (and I'm not picking a side in this, really) is that basically the core of their argument is that it's not "fair".

Man, life isn't fair. Get the fuck over it. Not you personally, but everyone. I see all these people bitching about "it's not fair" - yeah, neither is cancer! Neither is multiple sclerosis! Neither is getting shot in the eyeball on September 4, 1995 and losing vision in your right eye! Neither is getting dumped by that bitch after she fucked your buddy!

People need to take the energy they put into protesting things that "aren't fair" and put it toward developing a solution. There is no <b>right</b> to a market, foreign or domestic. But you <b>do</b> have the right to offer a solution to what you perceive (either rightly so or not) to be a problem.

I'm not coming down on you, Jag. You're just the one that mentioned it. I feel for the people that have trouble because of tariffs and all the problems that are created by international trade, but business does not have a right to a market.

Unfortunately for a lot of foreign markets, the US government is going to (understandably) favor domestically created products. What do the foreign companies need to do? <b>Make a product that's better than the US counterpart.</b> That's what they should be devoting their energy to.

Life's not fair, unfortunately. To these people I say "stop complaining and do something useful." That's where the money's at.

[jaguar]

Dham, mabye i didn't stress it enough.
I know life isn't fair, i know tariffs aren't fair, i also know why they are there, i don't have a problem with it, its in each nations interest to look after its national interest first. I'm doing first year uni international studies atm, we do this stuff in great, great detail.
I'm just saying its a: economically counterproductive in the long term b: well...unfair *laughz
The problem is, and its a fundamental one, is that our democratic system does not encourage long term solutions - beacause the politician won't be around to reap the benifits. Democracy is a shithouse system - until we find something better =) but that is a whole seperate thread =)

What do the foreign companies need to do? Make a product that's better than the US counterpart. That's what they should be devoting their energy to.

?
How can you make a better sheep? A better ton of grain? That only applies to some markets. Really it only applies to top-end secondary and teridtory level economies, australia is still primary (as an example, and i can't see the countries that really need the trade (such as for example, afghanisatan, palastine, name your third world country) exporting top end electronic goods or IT infrastructure solutions in the near future.

I know the one above it did, so did

Neither is getting dumped by that bitch after she fucked your buddy!

happen to you to?

Originally posted by jaguar
happen to you to?

Fortunatley, no. I've been pretty pleased, overall, with the women I've had serious relations with. One was an unpleasant bitch whom I was smart enough to ditch, and the other is... well, you know

Anyway. Bigger fatter sheep

Dunno about grain though, that's definitely a toughie. The farmers are obviously going to have more of a problem, simply because it's so easy (relatively speaking) to produce a pretty good working replica of their product (cute little sheep, grain, etc). Problem is, domestic products are <b>always</b> going to be cheaper than foreign, even without tarrifs - it ain't cheap to ship sheep! God, I hate rhyming. Anyway, I have to go to work.

[Griff]

tw brings up some interesting points. The French government intervenes to try to maintain the smaller "family farms". Why? It makes emotional sense (am I violating a tone copyright?) from the perspective of a country decimated by war twice last century. They lost the capacity to feed themselves and are trying to make sure that never happens again. From a market viewpoint their attempts to control food production seem destined to cause the shortages they wish to avoid. Its a matter of trust, the French trust government more, and the Americans trust the market more, (of course more in words than action) to feed the people without disruption. Now the French are trying to protect their farmers from American farms which were grown unaturally because of our governments interventions. This all ignores the different relationship that French and Americans have with their food...quality vs quantity...

The biggest disruption in American agriculture was the same event which the French are still compensating for. Americas wars were in themselves artificial subsidies leading to accelerated centralization and mechanization, due to increased demand and reduced manpower, which along with specific subsidies created market disruptions altering our farming practices at a pace that promotes fear among interested observers.

I know quite a number of the farmers on the list for my county. Most are in the four figure range while a few crack the five figure level. I believe the payments they received are mostly for the dip in corn production caused by recent droughts. Its some kind of crop failure insurance deal. A growing attitude among them is that they have to apply for these subsidies as a good business practice, since everybody else is subsidized. I noticed one local guy I know quite well who just started applying for subsidies in the last two years. He hates these government interventions since they protect incompetence.

Tax farming is now almost universal among US farmers. Some see the caps as a way to protect small operators but as long as we have subsidies we will have overproduction, the real problem. To me, the most disturbing part is that we are creating a welfare mentality among some of the most competent, capable, and independent folks in the country. The over-production problem, on a superficial level, seems like a good problem to have but as Jag and others have noted, it prevents third world farmers from developing their own agriculture, which leaves people exposed to the whims of war and trade disputes and screws with developing economies.

[kaleidoscopic ziggurat]

Originally posted by jaguar
Grrrr why the HELL does word (set to ENGLISH english, keep trying to spell words with a Z.

wouldnt that be your reason? civilization is british, civilisation is american, right?

something like that..

color vs colour